The morality of using mercenaries

[Zoupa]

Mercenaries?  We don't need that scum.

+1!

[Tonitrus]

Mercenaries?  We don't need that scum.

+1!

I forgot the corresponding pic...

[Neil]

And then, surrendering to the kind of foes we are fighting these days is not really an option.
You are dead either way, so better to go down fighting than being beheaded on Al-Jazeera.

Indeed.

[Admiral Yi]

What is the UN trying to do in Lybia?

Who are you talking about?  Who is the UN?

[Razgovory]

Mercs have the bad reputation in the west because they are considered unreliable, i.e. never willing to fight to the death.

I don't think many professional soldiers in Western armies are willing to fight to the death either.

Stop being stupid Marty.  Every solider who is going into a combat zone knows he or she may be killed in fighting.  They would prefer not to be killed or wounded, but they accept the fact that it may happen to them.  This is very much the willingness to die while fighting.

[Razgovory]

And then, surrendering to the kind of foes we are fighting these days is not really an option.
You are dead either way, so better to go down fighting than being beheaded on Al-Jazeera.

How do you guys deal with the possibility of capture?  I imagine every soldier knows what happens to American soldiers in the hands of the insurgents.

[Siege]

And then, surrendering to the kind of foes we are fighting these days is not really an option.
You are dead either way, so better to go down fighting than being beheaded on Al-Jazeera.

How do you guys deal with the possibility of capture?  I imagine every soldier knows what happens to American soldiers in the hands of the insurgents.

Very simple. There is no possibility of capture.
Every time we run into combat is victory or death.
There is no middle ground.

But then, there is always the possibility that you might get wounded badly, fall incouncious, while being overrun by enemy combatants.
If that happens to me and I wake up in their hands about to be beheaded in front of a video camera, I shall go down blaspheming islam and calling for other western men to pick up my gun and continue fighting the endless war.

[viper37]

There can only be peace defeating either Kaddafi or the rebels.
What is the UN trying to do in Lybia? Keeping the current frontlines fixed?
If the goal is to take out Kaddafi, and since none of the countries involved are willing to employ their own ground forces, why not outsource the campaign?

I guaranty you it would be cheaper and quicker.

There are already mercenaries on the ground fighting for Kaddafi.  And the Rebels also employ foreign mercenaries.  What more do you want?  Sending mercenaries with a US banner?

First of all, it would be illegal unless approved by the Congress, I'm pretty sure.
Second, mercenaries are unereliable for general combat operations.  If they were reliable, Afghanistan and Irak would have been pacified long ago.

Mercenaries are good for a very precise operation, clearly defined in its mandate and time.  Protect person X from airport to hotel for the duration of the stay.  Rescue captured prisoner in some place and bring him/her back to extraction point.

Using mercenaries to "depose a dictator" is way too complex.  They need coordination with the Rebels and with the NATO command, they need to be held accountable for their actions if they overstep their boundaries (like killing civilians) and they need to be accepted by everyone else fighting there.

Besides, I believe the examples of Iraq and Afghanistan have proven they are not only less effective than regular troops but also cost more.

[grumbler]

I don't think many professional soldiers in Western armies are willing to fight to the death either.

Define "western armies".
All infantrymen I have served with have always been aware that the might come a day when you have to fight to the bitter end.
The "fight to the death" is not a choice you make, but a choice that is forced on you.
It is ussually a combination of the enemy being more resorceful than ussual and your chain of command understimating the enemy capabilities and concentration of force and materiel.

And then, surrendering to the kind of foes we are fighting these days is not really an option.
You are dead either way, so better to go down fighting than being beheaded on Al-Jazeera.

What you say is true, but you have to understand that many non-Westerners are as confused as Marti as to what motivates soldiers in the West.  Non-Western armies like Poland's have lots of conscripts who are coming from a society that is backward enough that the soldiers aren't able to contemplate abstract concepts like consequences of actions, so they readily surrender because that seems the thing to do at the moment.  There couldn't be a Polish Shughart or Gordon because to be a Shughart or Gordon would require abstract thinking skills.

[Razgovory]

You know, I actually wonder how soldiers are viewed in Eastern Europe.  For decades soldiers were conscripts expected to serve a regime that oppressed their own people.  However, today soldiers are no longer expected to die invading the West or shoot at democracy protesters.

[The Brain]

Eastern Europe isn't worth thinking about.

[Grey Fox]

Mercenaries?  We don't need that scum.

What we need is the Legion!

FYP

[dps]

I don't think it is immoral or illegal to use mercenaries per se, but I'm pretty sure Western democratic governments have laws against outsourcing government functions and services to people with a criminal record or who committed crimes - and a strong presumption for any established mercenary band is that they did commit crimes in the past (e.g. when serving dictators and the like).

Of course, Western democracies also have a presumption of innocent until proven guilty.

[Viking]

I don't think it is immoral or illegal to use mercenaries per se, but I'm pretty sure Western democratic governments have laws against outsourcing government functions and services to people with a criminal record or who committed crimes - and a strong presumption for any established mercenary band is that they did commit crimes in the past (e.g. when serving dictators and the like).

Of course, Western democracies also have a presumption of innocent until proven guilty.

Yes, but do remember, the Western democracy itself is presumed guilty until it does something else it is presumed guilty of.

[grumbler]

I don't think it is immoral or illegal to use mercenaries per se, but I'm pretty sure Western democratic governments have laws against outsourcing government functions and services to people with a criminal record or who committed crimes - and a strong presumption for any established mercenary band is that they did commit crimes in the past (e.g. when serving dictators and the like).

Of course, Western democracies also have a presumption of innocent until proven guilty.

But only Western democracies.  Don't hold Marti to our standards.