Dutch Muslims & Jews united together

[Razgovory]

Don't like agreeing with Libertarians (especially when they go on about Reason like they are the only reasonable people in the world), but Weijun made a fairly good point.

[garbon]

I could understand how that would be a narrative that you would like to believe in, but I'm not sure I buy it.  For one thing, there isn't a serious person on the face of the earth who would consider animals to be a part of 'us'.  And then there's the fact that the progress of civilization has made things much worse for animals as a group, and that the spread of 'empathy' is by no means uniform, and that even a country that has the most elaborate animal cruelty laws in the world can engage in the industrialized slaughter of humans.

Also, I'm noting that the explosion of the animal rights movement in North America came about the same time as the kids who watched Bambi in theatres were going to college.  The old movement was an elitist philosophical movement going back to the Enlightenment, whereas the new movement was democratized and based on unthinking emotion.

I think the emotion thing is the major thing.  I used the example of Fish.  Few people wish to outlaw hook and line fishing, or catch and release which are needlessly painful to the animal (and yes, fish do feel pain).  Why cattle and not fish?  Cause fish look more alien then a cow.  It's easier to identify with a mammal then it is a fish.  It's not logical, or reasonable, or scientific.  It's just as irrational as those worshipers of a "bronze age desert fairies".  Perhaps more so, since those raving on about bronze age torturers have deluded themselves into thinking they are in fact reasonable.  The bronze age torturers typically have no such illusions.

Dolphins and whales don't look particularly familiar and yet there are many people who are concerned about them.

[Razgovory]

People liked Flipper and Free Willie.

[garbon]

People liked Flipper and Free Willie.

While that might help with your emotion argument, it doesn't really gel well with the rest your post about familiarity/identification.  People liked Finding Nemo.

[Slargos]

However, I don't need to see Bambi to know that torturing animals is "wrong"

No you don't.  The only thing you needed to know was what Hermann Goering thought about it.

Göring was a filthy traitor. 

[Slargos]

What do they teach you people in school?

To think.

I guess you never really paid attention in school.

He was absent that day.

What's your excuse? 

[Razgovory]

However, I don't need to see Bambi to know that torturing animals is "wrong"

No you don't.  The only thing you needed to know was what Hermann Goering thought about it.

Göring was a filthy traitor. 

Of course.  They were all traitors, they tried to overthrow the government in the early 1920's.

[dps]

What do they teach you people in school?

To think.

Obviously, they didn't do a very good job.

However, I don't need to see Bambi to know that torturing animals is "wrong" and I doubt it has ever been socially acceptable to any meaningful degree.

Nor did they do a very good job, apparantly, of providing you with factual knowledge.  Had they done so, you would know about things like bear-baiting and cock-fighting, things that were considered perfectly acceptable back in the day.

[dps]

People liked Flipper and Free Willie.

While that might help with your emotion argument, it doesn't really gel well with the rest your post about familiarity/identification.  People liked Finding Nemo.

Perhaps more to the point, dolphins and whales are mammals.

[garbon]

Perhaps more to the point, dolphins and whales are mammals.

Irrelevant though. Are you honestly trying to say that people have emotional reactions for whales and dolphins but not fish because we all have mammary glands?

[dps]

Perhaps more to the point, dolphins and whales are mammals.

Irrelevant though. Are you honestly trying to say that people have emotional reactions for whales and dolphins but not fish because we all have mammary glands?

Well, when you put it that way, no.

Anyway, a lot of people think that dolphins and whales are fish.

[Neil]

However, I don't need to see Bambi to know that torturing animals is "wrong"

No you don't.  The only thing you needed to know was what Hermann Goering thought about it.

Göring was a filthy traitor. 

What would make you say that?  He was loyal to his government to the end.

[Slargos]

However, I don't need to see Bambi to know that torturing animals is "wrong"

No you don't.  The only thing you needed to know was what Hermann Goering thought about it.

Göring was a filthy traitor. 

What would make you say that?  He was loyal to his government to the end.

His betrayal was spiritual. His excessive indulgence in narcotics and general incompetence cost the Cause greatly.

[11B4V]

However, I don't need to see Bambi to know that torturing animals is "wrong"

No you don't.  The only thing you needed to know was what Hermann Goering thought about it.

Göring was a filthy traitor. 

Of course.  They were all traitors, they tried to overthrow the government in the early 1920's.

Some were Homos.

[Neil]

However, I don't need to see Bambi to know that torturing animals is "wrong"

No you don't.  The only thing you needed to know was what Hermann Goering thought about it.

Göring was a filthy traitor. 

What would make you say that?  He was loyal to his government to the end.

His betrayal was spiritual. His excessive indulgence in narcotics and general incompetence cost the Cause greatly.

Not especially.  I mean, I suppose he can be faulted for not deposing Hitler.