World of Tanks

[Berkut]

I do love that the Obj-704 has a better gun than the T95...which costs less to research. On a MUCH faster tank. It of course does not have the monster armor of the T95, but it does shed shots to the front rather nicely.

[DGuller]

I think that difference in the vulnerability is really significant, though.  TDs sometimes can't help but expose their flanks, and that's where the Object and T95 are like day and night.  Object can be hurt in its sides by almost anything it is matched up against, while damaging the T95 even from the side is quite a project.

[katmai]

the stupidity of some makes this game frustrating sometimes.

[Tamas]

I think that difference in the vulnerability is really significant, though.  TDs sometimes can't help but expose their flanks, and that's where the Object and T95 are like day and night.  Object can be hurt in its sides by almost anything it is matched up against, while damaging the T95 even from the side is quite a project.

I am planning on spending an insane shitload of free XP on the tracks and big gun of the T28, so I can jump straight to it's sweet spot once I get it, but that said, I come up against the Object very very often, yet it is a rare event I see a T95. The Object appears to be much-much more popular.

[Berkut]

It is much more popular because it is all around a vastly superior vehicle.

The T95 is much more narrowly effective.

DG is on crack or something. The T95 can easily be penetrated from the side by anything it is on the field with, and the real difference between it and the 704 is that it has almost no ability to defend its flanks - it is too slow to re-position, while the 704 is very nimble and quick. Which would you prefer 150mm of flat side armor and a 12kmh speed limit, or 90mm of perfectly sloped side armor and a 37kmh speed limit? There is no contest in their relative flank vulnerability - the T95 is vastly more vulnerable.

THe T95 is a mobile pillbox with a big gun and incredible frontal armor. The 704 has a better gun, that is cheaper to research AND can actually be researched on the Tier 8 vehicle - so you don't even have to spend time in the 704 with a smaller gun. The 704 is a much more well balanced vehicle all around. It is, in fact, the best all around TD in the game. It is simply ridiculous that it has the best mobility matched with the best gun, and very good sloped armor. The JT is the real loser here though - it doesn't do anything that the 704 cannot do better, except for frontal armor, and there the T95 has it beat.

[Tamas]

The JT beats in it accuracy and ROF, does it not?

Beside, it is not a Russian vehicle in a game made by Russians, so it wins the moral contest

[Berkut]

Yes, it has better accuracy and ROF, but considerably less damage. That isn't a tradeoff most people are interested in making, especially in the cases where TDs shine, which is not sniping.

[Tamas]

Yes, it has better accuracy and ROF, but considerably less damage. That isn't a tradeoff most people are interested in making, especially in the cases where TDs shine, which is not sniping.

How does TDs not shine in sniping?  Ok, the JT can't really hide, but the 704 sure can, expect it probably lacks the accuracy for long range fire. Whereas my JT can hit anything from anywhere.

I think there are sniping TDs, and ambush TDs. Like, the Marder and the Hetzer respectively.

[DGuller]

Yes, it has better accuracy and ROF, but considerably less damage. That isn't a tradeoff most people are interested in making, especially in the cases where TDs shine, which is not sniping.

Huh?  Where do TDs shine, if it's not sniping?

[Berkut]

I am talking about endgame, and in end game, TDs are not the best snipers. Artillery dominates, so anything that is sniping has to be able to hide or redeploy quickly. Neither of which the JT is good at.

And you are right - the 704 hides rather nicely, which is why it is probably a better sniper than a JT, even with the lower accuracy. Good players can hit what they need to hit for the most part, even with a less accurate gun.

I am not saying the JT sucks or is useless, just that it is not really optimal at anything, while at the same time not being a particularly well rounded vehicle either. The things it is "best in class" at are not that important for the class it is in, unfortunately.

This is how the Russians manage to keep the Russian vehicles over powered while pretending like they are not - they do stuff like this, so they can say "See, the JT has better ROF and accuracty! The 704 is not the best!".

But the numbers don't lie, and the players know what works, and that is why you see a lot more 704s than JTs or T95s. The new American TD is pretty damn nice though - has the gun of the T95, useable mobility, and a turret. That is a nice design.

[Berkut]

Yes, it has better accuracy and ROF, but considerably less damage. That isn't a tradeoff most people are interested in making, especially in the cases where TDs shine, which is not sniping.

Huh?  Where do TDs shine, if it's not sniping?

At the upper end, they don't shine for the most part, but where they do it is in medium range slugouts. Snipers have to be mobile, because as soon as they fire two rounds, artillery is going to be on them. And TDs are meat to artillery.

Where they shine is in medium range direct fire support of heavy tanks, where they can provide T10 firepower on a Tier 9 hull (and hence Tier 9 TD points rather than T10 heavy points).

That is why they are very rarely used in CW - why take a T9 TD when you can get just as good firepower from an actual T10 heavy, and the constraint is simply in number of tanks, and not points?

Ironically, the one TD that does get used in CW is the T95 - because it is so narrowly useful, it has a place on maps like Himmelsdorf, where you can actually protect its flanks and artillery is laregly neutralized, hence it actually makes sense to give up mobility and a turret to dominate a linear space like tank alley. But it is very situational.

[Tamas]

"good players can hit despite accuracy". Please. If that nice green circle refuses to be smaller then 3 times the target far away, you can be the überpwnr, you still run a decent chance of missing.

[DGuller]

Artillery is certainly a concern, but it's not a hopeless problem.  I think I played like a dozen games in T95 on the test server, with most of them having a couple of heavy arty pieces on each side, and I don't recall arties being a real problem.  A much more annoying problem is when some asshole shot me in the pooper, twice.  T95 with a damaged engine on a mountain map is a fate worse than death.

[Tamas]

Artillery is a problem to the JT, but 6th sense solves it. And you can relocate with it easily.

Heaven comes when there is either no artillery, or you can shield from it, while also having a hull down position (like a wreck, or a short team-mate!). Oh boy, you start reaping things apart.

I do see that the object is a better TD. But I have been highly annoyed by Russian "accuracy" and while it's derp gun intriques me, I do value the awesome accuracy of my Jagdtiger.

Berkut, you have managed to put some serious doubts into me about chasing the T95 though. Too bad you did it half a day after the discount on the SU-100, my current step in the road to the 704, expired

[DGuller]

You should go through the Soviet TD tree in any case.  SU-152 (whose best gun is, appropriately enough for WoT, a 122), is a monster of a TD.  It's more overpowered than even KV or IS-4 (as of 7.2).