Global War On Drugs 'Has Failed' Say Former Leaders

[Habbaku]

I'd have time to monitor and help the killers, rapists, arsonists, burglars, robbers, and other assorted criminals I supervise a whole lot more.

[Strix]

The medical model that's being proposed in this thread is not enforced rehab. It's making drugs available to addicts legally, and helping them use the drugs in a setting that minimizes external causes of harm. This combined with rehab for the addicts who want it.

No but enforced rehab would have to be part of it for politicians and the public to accept it. I am not saying it would be mandatory but it would have a place somewhere along the chain just as incarceration is along the 'criminal model'. People don't usually go to jail for a first offense. There is a long chain of events that leads up to it.

[crazy canuck]

How many hospital beds will be filled?

Bad argument.  The research done on the Insite clinic in Vancouver where drugs are injected under medical surpervision is that significant health costs have been saved by preventing people from overdosing.  In fact if we go with the medical model health costs would be minimal since drugs quality would be normalized (no side effects caused by inconsistent drugs) and use would be carried out under medical supervision.

[Strix]

I didn't change my mind, I clarified my point by expressing it more completely.  The point was that people who do not infringe upon the rights of others should not be incarcerated, or have the threat of such hanging over them.

There is no difference between a convicted addict stealing $100 from my wallet or my paying $100 for his regulated drug supply through taxes. Either way I am out $100. I'd just prefer he spend some time in jail for taking my $100.

[DGuller]

The medical model that's being proposed in this thread is not enforced rehab. It's making drugs available to addicts legally, and helping them use the drugs in a setting that minimizes external causes of harm. This combined with rehab for the addicts who want it.

No but enforced rehab would have to be part of it for politicians and the public to accept it. I am not saying it would be mandatory but it would have a place somewhere along the chain just as incarceration is along the 'criminal model'. People don't usually go to jail for a first offense. There is a long chain of events that leads up to it.

From the freedom point of view that's not much better.  Draconian laws should not be moderated by enforcers practicing discretion; that just serves to give those who dole out discretion disproportionate power.  Draconian laws should be moderated by being repealed and replaced with non-idiotic laws.

[Strix]

Bad argument.  The research done on the Insite clinic in Vancouver where drugs are injected under medical surpervision is that significant health costs have been saved by preventing people from overdosing.  In fact if we go with the medical model health costs would be minimal since drugs quality would be normalized (no side effects caused by inconsistent drugs) and use would be carried out under medical supervision.

Rehab beds cost money. The staff used to run the facilities cost money. The facility costs money. Not sure how the savings become minimal.

I sent a parolee to rehab for marijuana use (as an alternative to incarceration). It cost Medicaid $7,500 for his two week stay.

[Strix]

From the freedom point of view that's not much better.  Draconian laws should not be moderated by enforcers practicing discretion; that just serves to give those who dole out discretion disproportionate power.  Draconian laws should be moderated by being repealed and replaced with non-idiotic laws.

I agree. New York already replaced their Draconian drug laws. So, I am not sure what your point is?

That's a joke. Anything that sends someone to prison for a non-violent crime, of your choosing, is Draconian to you. So, I am not sure the point of trying to continue a discussion within such limited parameters.

[DGuller]

I didn't change my mind, I clarified my point by expressing it more completely.  The point was that people who do not infringe upon the rights of others should not be incarcerated, or have the threat of such hanging over them.

There is no difference between a convicted addict stealing $100 from my wallet or my paying $100 for his regulated drug supply through taxes. Either way I am out $100. I'd just prefer he spend some time in jail for taking my $100.

Taxes are theft?  Man, you sure like mixing and matching extreme ideologies depending on which one suits you more in a particular case.  By that logic, to use the word logic with extreme charity, all poor people should be in prison, since they enjoy lower tax brackets at the expense of people in higher brackets, in liu of stealing from them.

[Malthus]

I didn't change my mind, I clarified my point by expressing it more completely.  The point was that people who do not infringe upon the rights of others should not be incarcerated, or have the threat of such hanging over them.

There is no difference between a convicted addict stealing $100 from my wallet or my paying $100 for his regulated drug supply through taxes. Either way I am out $100. I'd just prefer he spend some time in jail for taking my $100.

I think the argument here is that just giving the addict an Rx will reduce costs considrerably. Rather than them having to steal your $100 to get his fix (which will presumably cost a lot more in the form of cops, prisions, security, your time off work for being punched in the face, etc.), he could get his fix on the comparative cheap - since a drug that is legal and generic is gonna be something on the order of 100 times cheaper than a highly illegal street drug (plus the doc to prescribe it, etc.).

In short, it isn't necessarily equivalent.

Though that being noted - are the addicts not also possibly taxpayers? I dunno if it's a question of them stealing your cash, any more than any other social program recepient.

[Malthus]

Bad argument.  The research done on the Insite clinic in Vancouver where drugs are injected under medical surpervision is that significant health costs have been saved by preventing people from overdosing.  In fact if we go with the medical model health costs would be minimal since drugs quality would be normalized (no side effects caused by inconsistent drugs) and use would be carried out under medical supervision.

Rehab beds cost money. The staff used to run the facilities cost money. The facility costs money. Not sure how the savings become minimal.

I sent a parolee to rehab for marijuana use (as an alternative to incarceration). It cost Medicaid $7,500 for his two week stay.

I agree that mandatory rehab isn't much better than jail. That's exactly why I'm not advocating it.

[Razgovory]

I didn't change my mind, I clarified my point by expressing it more completely.  The point was that people who do not infringe upon the rights of others should not be incarcerated, or have the threat of such hanging over them.

There is no difference between a convicted addict stealing $100 from my wallet or my paying $100 for his regulated drug supply through taxes. Either way I am out $100. I'd just prefer he spend some time in jail for taking my $100.

Taxes are theft?  Man, you sure like mixing and matching extreme ideologies depending on which one suits you more in a particular case.  By that logic, to use the word logic with extreme charity, all poor people should be in prison, since they enjoy lower tax brackets at the expense of people in higher brackets, in liu of stealing from them.

I think that accurately describes the conservative position.  Though it is abit odd expressed by a government employee.  Still that sort of thing is not unheard of here.  Something like a third of the people in my area are employed by the state, but many believe that all government employees are lazy and are often unaware they are paid by taxation.  I encountered this at the Department of Revenue, which is a tax collecting agency.  It's really bizarre.

[Strix]

Taxes are theft?  Man, you sure like mixing and matching extreme ideologies depending on which one suits you more in a particular case.  By that logic, to use the word logic with extreme charity, all poor people should be in prison, since they enjoy lower tax brackets at the expense of people in higher brackets, in liu of stealing from them.

And where did I state taxes were theft? Nice attempt at a strawman.

The logic is simple. If I have to pay money to "help" someone else than I would prefer that help be in a certain form.

I guess you'd have to say I am one of those people who would buy someone a meal from McDonald's to hand them rather than hand them $10 when they beg for money for food.

[The Brain]

Taxes are theft?  Man, you sure like mixing and matching extreme ideologies depending on which one suits you more in a particular case.  By that logic, to use the word logic with extreme charity, all poor people should be in prison, since they enjoy lower tax brackets at the expense of people in higher brackets, in liu of stealing from them.

And where did I state taxes were theft? Nice attempt at a strawman.

The logic is simple. If I have to pay money to "help" someone else than I would prefer that help be in a certain form.

I guess you'd have to say I am one of those people who would buy someone a meal from McDonald's to hand them rather than hand them $10 when they beg for money for food.

Really? And be sued for giving him fattening food?

[Malthus]

Taxes are theft?  Man, you sure like mixing and matching extreme ideologies depending on which one suits you more in a particular case.  By that logic, to use the word logic with extreme charity, all poor people should be in prison, since they enjoy lower tax brackets at the expense of people in higher brackets, in liu of stealing from them.

And where did I state taxes were theft? Nice attempt at a strawman.

The logic is simple. If I have to pay money to "help" someone else than I would prefer that help be in a certain form.

I guess you'd have to say I am one of those people who would buy someone a meal from McDonald's to hand them rather than hand them $10 when they beg for money for food.

McDonalds? What did that poor person ever do to you? 

[garbon]

I guess you'd have to say I am one of those people who would buy someone a meal from McDonald's to hand them rather than hand them $10 when they beg for money for food.

So you hate people who beg for money so they can buy food?