'Handcuffed by policy': Fire crews watch man drown in neck deep water

[dps]

Water can't have been that cold if it took him an hour to die.

Yep.

A couple other things:

The Coast Guard was called to the scene, but the water was too shallow for a boat

If he was in neck-deep water, it may have been too shallow for a cutter, but not for a launch.

And:

"This just strikes me as not just a problem with funding, but a problem with the culture of what's going on in our city, that no one would take the time and help this drowning man," Alameda resident Adam Gillitt told KGO.

Bingo. 

[HVC]

guy wanted to die and he got to die. win-win.

[Barrister]

Were there any nuclear wessels?

That was the first thing I thought of when I saw Alameda.

[garbon]

And:

"This just strikes me as not just a problem with funding, but a problem with the culture of what's going on in our city, that no one would take the time and help this drowning man," Alameda resident Adam Gillitt told KGO.

Bingo. 

That was the part that made the least sense to me. Easy to whine about others when you aren't doing something yourself.

[dps]

And:

"This just strikes me as not just a problem with funding, but a problem with the culture of what's going on in our city, that no one would take the time and help this drowning man," Alameda resident Adam Gillitt told KGO.

Bingo. 

That was the part that made the least sense to me. Easy to whine about others when you aren't doing something yourself.

Uh, I wasn't there.  Kinda hard to pull someone out of San Francisco Bay from North Carolina.

[garbon]

And:

"This just strikes me as not just a problem with funding, but a problem with the culture of what's going on in our city, that no one would take the time and help this drowning man," Alameda resident Adam Gillitt told KGO.

Bingo. 

That was the part that made the least sense to me. Easy to whine about others when you aren't doing something yourself.

Uh, I wasn't there.  Kinda hard to pull someone out of San Francisco Bay from North Carolina.

I meant the person in the article - although yes it isn't clear if they were on the scene either.

[grumbler]

I meant the person in the article - although yes it isn't clear if they were on the scene either.

He had an hour to get to the scene! 

I'm with you - it was an idiotic thing to say.  This wasn't a rescue situation.  The guy could have come ashore any time he wanted to.  An attempt to force him to come to shore would have been fraught with risk, and, as the story notes, the people attempting it would have been neither trained nor equipped for the task (and probably wisely - how often does this occur, as opposed to the measures that would need to be dropped to pay for these measures?)  It's like a guy sitting on a window ledge.  You don't try to force him back inside, because he may take you with him when he goes.

"Man succeed in committing suicide" is the story here.

[Agelastus]

I meant the person in the article - although yes it isn't clear if they were on the scene either.

He had an hour to get to the scene! 

I'm with you - it was an idiotic thing to say.  This wasn't a rescue situation.  The guy could have come ashore any time he wanted to.  An attempt to force him to come to shore would have been fraught with risk, and, as the story notes, the people attempting it would have been neither trained nor equipped for the task (and probably wisely - how often does this occur, as opposed to the measures that would need to be dropped to pay for these measures?)  It's like a guy sitting on a window ledge.  You don't try to force him back inside, because he may take you with him when he goes.

"Man succeed in committing suicide" is the story here.

Would you be so blase if it had been a case of accidental drowning rather than deliberate self-harm? After all, the apparent implication of this policy is that the same response would be applied in that case - they would have just stood and watched such a person drown rather than "break policy".

Which, incidentally, has happened over here with police officers summoned to assist a person in difficulty in inland waters* but not helping because "they lacked the equipment procedure/policy required" IIRC.




*I think it was a flooded quarry, but I can't recall exactly as the incident was a year or so ago.

[grumbler]

Would you be so blase if it had been a case of accidental drowning rather than deliberate self-harm? After all, the apparent implication of this policy is that the same response would be applied in that case - they would have just stood and watched such a person drown rather than "break policy".

Since I am  not blase about the situation, I am not going to get drawn into some asinine discussion about what level of hysteria need be reached under different circumstances.  Had the man been drowning, he would have been rescued (or, at least, a rescue would have been attempted).  In this case, he was committing suicide.  That's afar different situation than a drowning person, and authorities are rightfully more reluctant to risk responders' lives for suicides.

[CountDeMoney]

Would you be so blase if it had been a case of accidental drowning rather than deliberate self-harm? After all, the apparent implication of this policy is that the same response would be applied in that case - they would have just stood and watched such a person drown rather than "break policy".

The only thing that can defeat heroes in this world are lawyers. And the "policy" that they would "break" is their only protection left.

That's why, when I was with the Po-Po, we never got recertified for First Responder Adult CPR after the academy.  Had to get it per state requirements in the academy in order to be an accredited institution, but the city tossed the requirement for the force afterwards.  Why?  Got tired of dealing with the lawsuits.

Respond to the scene.
Shooting/stabbing/car accident victim requires CPR.
Render emergency aid prior to Medic arrival.
Victim expires despite best efforts.
8 months later, the responding officer, his sergeant, his shift lieutenant, his district commander, the Operations Bureau commander, the Training Bureau commander, the Police Commissioner and the Mayor of Baltimore listed as civil defendants for the $9 million dollar wrongful death civil suit.

Meh, pass. Easier to let the Fire Department take the hit.  You shouldn't have gotten your dumb ass shot/stabbed/t-boned.

We had to get rid of our slim jims.  Used to be, every patrol car carried a slim jim to help people who locked their keys in their cars on calls for service.  Well, fuck that.  Help somebody unlock their door because their keys were in the ignition...then get a $800 bill AND a discourtesy complaint to Infernal Investigations 2 1/2 months later because "the po-po dat showed up done busted up my locks, yo, he di'int hafta do all dat'n bus' up my shit."  Now you call Pop-A-Lock, bitches.

There'd be a lot less suffering in this world, and a lot more good works accomplished, if it wasn't for the existence of lawyers.


And water rescues, in standing water or not, is a very dangerous, very specialized effort.  Which this particular incident was not.
I'm sure as shit not dropping my gun belt and taking off my shoes to wade out to somebody that could very easily take my ass with him.  Fuck you think I am, Flipper?

[Agelastus]

Would you be so blase if it had been a case of accidental drowning rather than deliberate self-harm? After all, the apparent implication of this policy is that the same response would be applied in that case - they would have just stood and watched such a person drown rather than "break policy".

Since I am  not blase about the situation, I am not going to get drawn into some asinine discussion about what level of hysteria need be reached under different circumstances.  Had the man been drowning, he would have been rescued (or, at least, a rescue would have been attempted).  In this case, he was committing suicide.  That's afar different situation than a drowning person, and authorities are rightfully more reluctant to risk responders' lives for suicides.

Why do you persist in picking out one tree ("incident") from the forest ("policy"), thus missing the point completely?

To quote the article -

Interim Alameda Fire Chief Mike D'Orazi said Monday's incident is troubling. He has directed staff to write a new policy that would allow water rescues in the city of about 75,000 people across the bay from San Francisco.

The policy, according to the information presented in the article, concerns water rescues, not people committing suicide. The problem was the location, not the act. So how is the situation different from a drowning person if they choose to "follow policy" because that way is the "safe" option, as they did here?

Which, I repeat as I note you chose not to quote that part of my post, has actually happened on this side of the Atlantic in similar circumstances.

I repeat, would you have been so blase in your response had the incident concerned an accidental drowning rather than the deliberate attempt at self-harm that it actually was?

--------------------------

And "asinine"? Hysteria? Your fundamental contempt for your fellow posters is really starting to show through, dear boy. It's really starting to take the shine off your claim to "never be the first to resort to insults".

[CountDeMoney]

Shouldn't you accent blasé, or at least put blasé in italics?

[Ed Anger]

I'm surprised it isn't pronounced "wallywomper" in their godawful accent.

[Agelastus]

...Fascinating and informative post by CDM...

The same situation is happening over here; consider volunteer "First Aiders", for example. Apparently, current advice over here so limits what they can do (for fear of being sued) that there's no point in them having taken 95% of their certification.

It's a sad, sad world.

I'm disappointed that everybody stood by (in the case I mentioned over here, a bystander actually rescued the person who was in difficulty in the water) but I can, sort of, understand it. It doesn't make it right though.

[Agelastus]

Shouldn't you accent blasé, or at least put blasé in italics?

Yes, you're right, but I've never learned the keyboard well enough to produce accents where needed. I'm a (badly) self-taught typist.