How Many Mississippi Voters Wish the South Had Won the Civil War?

[Berkut]

Actually, enslaving part of your population and not allowing them to have a political voice does make their national conscience less valid.

So the USA should still be part of Britain?

No, because anything is valid if you win.

There is that as well.

[Neil]

This discussion seems so venomous, it pains me to read it. You gentlemen are associates of the same forum- please don't be so pedantic and unpleasant to each other. It's a bit wearying- and as such i've bowed out of the conversation, until now, only to say that it really doesn't seem befitting for anyone to do.

I know grumbler has that reputation, but does anyone really enjoy this sort of thing? I think I used to, but I can't be sure.

  Irony isn't just the opposite of wrinkly.

I'm not sure that you actually know what the word 'irony' means.

[grumbler]

I'm not sure that you actually know what the word 'irony' means.

There are a great many things that you rightfully should not be sure about.  If that is one, then I can certainly live with that.  It is only important that I am sure that I know. 

[garbon]

It is only important that I am sure that I know. 

Sounds like something Raz might say.

[Razgovory]

It is only important that I am sure that I know. 

Sounds like something Raz might say.

Patton, Grumbler and I are of one mind.  Hopefully with enough treatment I can whittle it down to just me with that mind.

[grumbler]

Sounds like something Raz might say.

I bow to your superior expertise on the topic. 

[Eddie Teach]

It is only important that I am sure that I know. 

Sounds like something Raz might say.

Raz would have left a random word out.

[garbon]

Sounds like something Raz might say.

I bow to your superior expertise on the topic. 

I wasn't in a psychiatry club in college though.

[Valmy]

The corollary to my point is Puerto Rico - do they have the right to demand independence?  Votes on the topic have been allowed.

They should either be given independence or join as a full state.  I am not particularly fond of different rules for different people inside the same country.  Everybody should be equal.  Hopefully the days of 'territories' and 'Commonwealths' and such measures will soon be over.  They may have been a necessary measure during the frontier days but no longer.  This is my opinion on all the remaining (inhabited) special territories the US.  But this has nothing to do with something as disgusting as the rights of peoples to have a state.  It is simply the best way to handle these territories.

Puerto Rico has never demanded independence btw.

[Valmy]

You've bitched about almost every new independent state since the creation of languish though.

Only the ones that have been created thanks to nationalist movements either provoking violence or commiting it themselves for that purpose.  But nationalist groups merely stirring up hatred for other groups and creating myths of persecution by others to achieve political action is also something I regard as contemptible and worthy of my scorn.

And rightfully so.

[Neil]

I'm not sure that you actually know what the word 'irony' means.

There are a great many things that you rightfully should not be sure about.  If that is one, then I can certainly live with that.  It is only important that I am sure that I know. 

Then you are misusing the word.

[Razgovory]

The corollary to my point is Puerto Rico - do they have the right to demand independence?  Votes on the topic have been allowed.

They should either be given independence or join as a full state.  I am not particularly fond of different rules for different people inside the same country.  Everybody should be equal.  Hopefully the days of 'territories' and 'Commonwealths' and such measures will soon be over.  They may have been a necessary measure during the frontier days but no longer.  This is my opinion on all the remaining (inhabited) special territories the US.  But this has nothing to do with something as disgusting as the rights of peoples to have a state.  It is simply the best way to handle these territories.

Puerto Rico has never demanded independence btw.

Puerto Rico votes on independence every once in a while.  It never gets much of a vote.  While the US has not said that the votes carry the power of law, I imagine if they want to leave the US would let them.  There's not much of a reason to want to keep them.

I would argue that Puerto Rico, being culturally and linguistically distinct from the US is a separate nation.  Unlike the South which is not.

[Valmy]

Puerto Rico votes on independence every once in a while.  It never gets much of a vote.  While the US has not said that the votes carry the power of law, I imagine if they want to leave the US would let them.  There's not much of a reason to want to keep them.

I would argue that Puerto Rico, being culturally and linguistically distinct from the US is a separate nation.  Unlike the South which is not.

Eh so was Louisiana and I do not see any particular reason why cultural and linguistic differences cannot exist in the same nation particularly in ours which has no official language.

In any case I know they have votes from time to time but they have been not just votes on indepence but on the status of Puerto Rico in general.  They probably would be a state already if they had not given the Ricans a chance to 'no-vote' in the last election.  Naturally I would want a vote that simply says 'Join the Union or Become Independent?'  Join the Union would win in a landslide IMO but I am not in charge

[Razgovory]

Puerto Rico votes on independence every once in a while.  It never gets much of a vote.  While the US has not said that the votes carry the power of law, I imagine if they want to leave the US would let them.  There's not much of a reason to want to keep them.

I would argue that Puerto Rico, being culturally and linguistically distinct from the US is a separate nation.  Unlike the South which is not.

Eh so was Louisiana and I do not see any particular reason why cultural and linguistic differences cannot exist in the same nation particularly in ours which has no official language.

In any case I know they have votes from time to time but they have been not just votes on indepence but on the status of Puerto Rico in general.  They probably would be a state already if they had not given the Ricans a chance to 'no-vote' in the last election.  Naturally I would want a vote that simply says 'Join the Union or Become Independent?'  Join the Union would win in a landslide IMO but I am not in charge

I'm not saying that being a different nation means you have to become independent.  I'm saying it would give you a legitimate reason to do so.  Puerto Ricans have little interest in leaving.  As a separate nation and as a territory they should have the power to do so.  Whether they want to exercise this power is up to them.

The Issues with Indian tribes is a bit more problematic, though most of those have a degree of autonomy.

[Valmy]

I'm not saying that being a different nation means you have to become independent.  I'm saying it would give you a legitimate reason to do so.  Puerto Ricans have little interest in leaving.  As a separate nation and as a territory they should have the power to do so.  Whether they want to exercise this power is up to them.

Eh even if they were a bunch of California valley girls living on that island their independence would be no less legitimate.  They are not fully part of the United States

The Issues with Indian tribes is a bit more problematic, though most of those have a degree of autonomy.

There is nothing particularly problematic about them.  We should respect our treaties with them so long as they want us to do so and make sure they have full equal rights with everybody else.