How Many Mississippi Voters Wish the South Had Won the Civil War?

[Valmy]

And why are you so threatened by this?  Do you really think, say, Alaska is going to go out and vote on independence any time soon?

And there is the counter example of the Philipines - the only area of American sovereignty that was ultimately granted its independence that I can think of.  What makes the Philipines divisible, but not Texas?

I am not threatened by this in a US context this is a principal I believe in on a world scale.  This national self-determination (NOT self-determination for individuals) thing defines people as parts of a groups designed to struggle for political dominance where the biggest group has the rights and the smaller has none.  That goes against practically everything I believe.  People are individuals and have rights as individuals.  Groups of people do not.  I do not support something, like national self-determination, that promotes genocide, ethnic cleansing, and nationalism.  Is believing strongly in something and being repelled by something on a moral level make me threatened by it?  Nah I just have a strong opinion in this area.  Well that and the Civil War issue is not completely dead in this country as you can see by the Mississippi poll.

But I am just one dude with no power.

Seriously the Philipines?  They were being dictated to by a government in which they had no representation in direct violation of human rights.

[Tonitrus]

And why are you so threatened by this?  Do you really think, say, Alaska is going to go out and vote on independence any time soon?

The closest Alaska has been to independence was a bad Craig T. Nelson tv miniseries from the 90's.

[Barrister]

And why are you so threatened by this?  Do you really think, say, Alaska is going to go out and vote on independence any time soon?

And there is the counter example of the Philipines - the only area of American sovereignty that was ultimately granted its independence that I can think of.  What makes the Philipines divisible, but not Texas?

I am not threatened by this in a US context this is a principal I believe in on a world scale.  This national self-determination (NOT self-determination for individuals) thing defines people as parts of a groups designed to struggle for political dominance where the biggest group has the rights and the smaller has none.  That goes against practically everything I believe.  People are individuals and have rights as individuals.  Groups of people do not.  I do not support something, like national self-determination, that promotes genocide, ethnic cleansing, and nationalism.  Is believing strongly in something and being repelled by something on a moral level make me threatened by it?  Nah I just have a strong opinion in this area.  Well that and the Civil War issue is not completely dead in this country as you can see by the Mississippi poll.

But I am just one dude with no power.

Seriously the Philipines?  They were being dictated to by a government in which they had no representation in direct violation of human rights.

You've bitched about almost every new independent state since the creation of languish though.

And (having googled it before I made the reference) the Phillipines had been granted some regional autonomy back in the 30s - they had some representation.  My point still stands.

The corollary to my point is Puerto Rico - do they have the right to demand independence?  Votes on the topic have been allowed.

[katmai]

And why are you so threatened by this?  Do you really think, say, Alaska is going to go out and vote on independence any time soon?

The closest Alaska has been to independence was a bad Craig T. Nelson tv miniseries from the 90's.

Like i'd talk about this in front of a federal stooge like you.

[Barrister]

And why are you so threatened by this?  Do you really think, say, Alaska is going to go out and vote on independence any time soon?

The closest Alaska has been to independence was a bad Craig T. Nelson tv miniseries from the 90's.

Didn't Alaska elect a AIP Governor at one point?

[Tonitrus]

And why are you so threatened by this?  Do you really think, say, Alaska is going to go out and vote on independence any time soon?

The closest Alaska has been to independence was a bad Craig T. Nelson tv miniseries from the 90's.

Like i'd talk about this in front of a federal stooge like you.

I think Alaska (Anchorage and Fairbanks anyway) is pretty much dominated by us federal stooges. 

[katmai]

And why are you so threatened by this?  Do you really think, say, Alaska is going to go out and vote on independence any time soon?

The closest Alaska has been to independence was a bad Craig T. Nelson tv miniseries from the 90's.

Didn't Alaska elect a AIP Governor at one point?

Sorta, he was former Republican who when decided to run again went under the AIP. By the way met Coghill on this last job.

In 1990, an open primary nominated Alaska State Senator Arliss Sturgulewski as the Republican candidate for Governor of Alaska, facing the Mayor of Anchorage, Tony Knowles, a Democrat, in the general election.

Sturgulewski was criticized by many Republicans for her positions on issues such as abortion and capital punishment. Alaskan Independence Party chairman Joe Vogler seized on this discontent to offer the seats on the AIP ticket to Hickel and to Jack Coghill, who had been nominated as the Republican candidate for Lieutenant Governor of Alaska, but who had serious compatibility issues with Sturgulewski. John Howard Lindauer and Jerry Ward, replacement AIP candidates, stepped aside, citing the illness of Lindauer's wife. Hickel and Coghill prevailed in the general election.


Although he had common ground with the Alaska Independence Party in fighting restrictions on land use imposed by federal environmentalism, Hickel had been one of the most influential historical proponents of Alaska statehood and never endorsed the AIP's secessionism, prompting some party faithful to petition for his recall. He rejoined the Republican Party in April 1994, near the tail end of his term.

[Razgovory]

In a sense though it's good that the Civil War happened.  If it had not happened or it had been shorter then it was it would have been difficult to abolish slavery which would have been a moral and economic mill stone around the neck of the US.

Abysmal failure of Reconstruction = a moral economic millstone around the neck of the US, though.   

Not nearly as bad as Slavery was. The Civil War also led the path to Federal supremacy which was key to the civil rights movement.  There really wasn't a legal means to get rid of slavery before the Civil War.

[Razgovory]

And there is the counter example of the Philipines - the only area of American sovereignty that was ultimately granted its independence that I can think of.  What makes the Philipines divisible, but not Texas?

I think It was assumed early on that the US would only be a "caretaker" of the Philippines.  I think by 1920 they were already putting in plans for the US to give the Philippines independence.  It should be noted, that the difference between Texas and the Philippines is that Texas joined the US voluntarily, while the Philippines did not.

[grumbler]

And there is the counter example of the Philipines - the only area of American sovereignty that was ultimately granted its independence that I can think of.  What makes the Philipines divisible, but not Texas?

Are you just making this shit up as you go?  The US explicitly took on the PI as a temporary measure and explicitly renounced permanent control.  The PI was like Cuba and the Mandates; a non-incorporated territory.

[grumbler]

And why are you so threatened by this?  Do you really think, say, Alaska is going to go out and vote on independence any time soon?

Why are you making this so personal?  Why claim Valmy is "so threatened by this?"  Why not just have an intellectual discussion?

[Berkut]

Do you feel that, either in the 19th century, or the 21st, that the US could ignore or deny the clearly expressed wish of some region to seceed from the United States?

In all but the most severe circumstances absolutely.  But if they had a reason that was justified the whole country would probably be collapsing anyway.

But who is to judge how severe the circumstances.  You?  The President?

Why not the democratic expression of the people involved?  You know - self-determination?

I am aware that because of the precedent of the Civil War the US does seem to think of itself as indivisible.  But dare I say it - that makes the USA a hypocrite.  Since at least as far back as Wilson's 14 points the USA has long championed the right of self-determination for other peoples of the world.  It has supported decolonialism on the grounds of self-determination.  It supported the independence of the nations of Austria-Hungary, the peoples of the Soviet Union, and most recently of the Kosovars.

And why are you so threatened by this?  Do you really think, say, Alaska is going to go out and vote on independence any time soon?

And there is the counter example of the Philipines - the only area of American sovereignty that was ultimately granted its independence that I can think of.  What makes the Philipines divisible, but not Texas?

I answered all this in my first response to you.

[The Brain]

Do you guys say "Mississippi" when counting seconds?

[Eddie Teach]

Either that or -one thousand.

[Barrister]

Do you feel that, either in the 19th century, or the 21st, that the US could ignore or deny the clearly expressed wish of some region to seceed from the United States?

In all but the most severe circumstances absolutely.  But if they had a reason that was justified the whole country would probably be collapsing anyway.

But who is to judge how severe the circumstances.  You?  The President?

Why not the democratic expression of the people involved?  You know - self-determination?

I am aware that because of the precedent of the Civil War the US does seem to think of itself as indivisible.  But dare I say it - that makes the USA a hypocrite.  Since at least as far back as Wilson's 14 points the USA has long championed the right of self-determination for other peoples of the world.  It has supported decolonialism on the grounds of self-determination.  It supported the independence of the nations of Austria-Hungary, the peoples of the Soviet Union, and most recently of the Kosovars.

And why are you so threatened by this?  Do you really think, say, Alaska is going to go out and vote on independence any time soon?

And there is the counter example of the Philipines - the only area of American sovereignty that was ultimately granted its independence that I can think of.  What makes the Philipines divisible, but not Texas?

I answered all this in my first response to you.

If you don't want to discuss the matter, you could have just not hit the "reply" button.