Brits, jealous of US air powah, bitch about drones, in Brit-like fashion

[CountDeMoney]

Are drones a technological tipping point in warfare?

Debates are growing at home and abroad over the increasing use of remotely piloted, armed drones, with a new study by the British Defense Ministry  questioning whether advances in their capabilities will lead future decision-makers to "resort to war as a policy option far sooner than previously."

Active and retired U.S. Air Force officers involved in developing drones stress that the aircraft brings in more decision-makers, better targeting data and more accurate delivery systems than fighter jets.

But use of the unmanned aerial vehicles has drawn growing public scrutiny based on their lethal attacks in Pakistan against al-Qaeda, in Afghanistan against the Taliban, in Yemen against al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, and most recently in Libya, as announced Thursday by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates.

The British study noted that drones are becoming increasingly automated. With minor technical advances, it said, a drone could soon be able to "fire a weapon based solely on its own sensors, or shared information, and without recourse to higher, human authority." It cautioned that the Defense Ministry "currently has no intention to develop" such systems.

Nonetheless, the aircraft, piloted by people far from the battlefield, represents an approaching technological tipping point "that may well deliver a genuine revolution in military affairs," according to the Joint Doctrine Note, which was conducted under the direction of the British Chiefs of Staff. Titled "The United Kingdom Approach to Unmanned Aircraft Systems," it was first disclosed last week by the Guardian newspaper.

The British study said it was essential that military officials not "risk losing our controlling humanity and make war more likely" by using armed drones. It also asserted, however, that the laws of war call on commanders on both sides of the fight to limit loss of life and that "use of unmanned aircraft prevents the potential loss of aircrew lives and is thus in itself morally justified."

At a Washington conference of the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) last week, the issue of drones was also widely discussed.

Lt. Col. Bruce Black, program manager for the Air Force Predator and Reaper aircraft, noted that some 180 people are involved in each drone mission. The result, he said, is that "there is more ethical oversight involved with unmanned air vehicles than with manned aircraft."

At the same conference, former CIA director Michael V. Hayden described how, with a Predator circling overhead, those involved in ordering use of its missiles from thousands of miles away can call up computer maps that show the potential effects of each weapon.

Before any of the Hellfire missiles are launched, he said, the backup team asks for the "the bug splat" of the attack — a readout of the impact the missile would have on its ground target. Nothing comparable can be done with ground-supporting manned aircraft, he said.

But the drones have become part of the propaganda war where they are used. Without referencing the Taliban or al Qaeda, the British paper noted that insurgents have cast themselves as the underdog against a "cowardly bully . . . that is unwilling to risk his own troops, but is happy to kill remotely."

Retired Lt. Gen. David Deptula, former Air Force deputy chief of staff for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, acknowledged that the use of drones comes with potential problems with public perceptions. "Our adversaries have interjected this as a question in [people's] minds, as an attempt to limit the use of what is very, very effective," he said.

At the IISS conference, participants were asked whether drone operators had been desensitized to killing, because they were so far away from the battlefield.

Col. Dean Bushey, deputy director of the Air Force Joint Unmanned Aircraft Systems Center, pointed out that the crews that run Predators in Nevada go through the exact routines that airplane pilots do prior to a mission. They go through a restricted area, wear brown flight suits, receive a mission brief and are put into a "warrior ethos" before ever stepping into a ground control station. "You are executing a mission to save lives," he said.

Black said that when a Predator operator is connected to a fighter on the ground in Afghanistan, "you can hear his voice and you can hear the bullets whistling over his head. You feel that pressure." He vividly described an operator in Nevada, sitting at a computer console and listening and looking at his colleague thousands of miles away through a micro-picture view.

"My situational awareness of what he is going through at that time is probably better than a guy that showed up at 10 minutes on station and dropped a weapon and left," Black said. "I see my effects, I watched, I listened, I was with him the five hours prior to that. . . . I'd say we are very much in the fight."

The United Kingdom Approach to Unmanned Aircraft Systems which, apparently, is not to have one, can be read here:
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/DDE54504-AF8E-4A4C-8710-514C6FB66D67/0/20110401JDN211UASv1WebU.pdf

You people are such unbelieveable pussies sometimes.  And to think, this is the nation that once spawned such real warrior douchebags like Kitchener and Monty.

[Brazen]

I'm all for the US using more automated drones. It might actually prevent them bombing allied troops and the side they're supposed to be defending.

[Slargos]

I'm all for the US using more automated drones. It might actually prevent them bombing allied troops and the side they're supposed to be defending.

Assuming the operators will not also be hopped up on meth like the pilots.

[Ideologue]

"questioning whether advances in their capabilities will lead future decision-makers to "resort to war as a policy option far sooner than previously."

Well, gosh, I hope so.

It's odd how so many people who get antsy America's about propensity to drop bombs on people will also complain about the First World's lack of response to Rwanda or other problem locations.  It's easier to respond to bad people doing bad things when it's politically easier to kill them.

insurgents have cast themselves as the underdog against a "cowardly bully . . . that is unwilling to risk his own troops, but is happy to kill remotely."

To understate severely, it's a little sour grapes.

The only way it could be better is if we could reanimate dead Taliban to use as Deathloks in the ongoing War against Cavepeople.

[grumbler]

I'm all for the US using more automated drones. It might actually prevent them bombing allied troops and the side they're supposed to be defending.

Indeed.  I think it incredibly rude of the USAF to intervene in the traditional British Army practice of shooting one another.  Accidentally killing one's fellow-countrymen soldiers is simply tradition; killing allies is Bad Form.

[derspiess]

Re: the US reputation for bombing our own troops/allies, does anyone know if the friendly fire incidents dating back to US involvement in WWII are really statistically much different from our allies' when you calculate based upon the # of incidents divided by # of ground attack sorties flown?

[grumbler]

Re: the US reputation for bombing our own troops/allies, does anyone know if the friendly fire incidents dating back to US involvement in WWII are really statistically much different from our allies' when you calculate based upon the # of incidents divided by # of ground attack sorties flown?

No, they are not much different, from what i have seen.  It is just that no one flies much in the information age except the US.

Having said that, the incidence of FF by US lieutenant colonels in fighter/attack helicopter cockpits is apparently off the scale.

The Brits used to accept without all the whining that FF was a hazard of war.  For example, the RAF started off WW2  with two Spitfire kills.... of two Hurricanes.  Insofar as I know, not a single Brit outside of the slain pilot's family burst into tears.

There was a huge British FF incident in the desert, with hundreds of British soldiers killed.  I believe this was the worst FF case of its kind (exceeding even the three Canadians killed by two American jets in Afghanistan).

The first warship ever sunk by the Luftwaffe was a German destroyer.

[Slargos]

Ah, another American Super Power. Making Excuses.

You Americans really excel at everything. 

[Tamas]

Ah, another American Super Power. Making Excuses.

You Americans really excel at everything. 

You must either stop hating brown people, or hating America, because it is only the latter who kills the former, and vice versa as a matter of fact.

Choose your side, son

[Ideologue]

Re: the US reputation for bombing our own troops/allies, does anyone know if the friendly fire incidents dating back to US involvement in WWII are really statistically much different from our allies' when you calculate based upon the # of incidents divided by # of ground attack sorties flown?

No, they are not much different, from what i have seen.  It is just that no one flies much in the information age except the US.

Having said that, the incidence of FF by US lieutenant colonels in fighter/attack helicopter cockpits is apparently off the scale.

The Brits used to accept without all the whining that FF was a hazard of war.  For example, the RAF started off WW2  with two Spitfire kills.... of two Hurricanes.  Insofar as I know, not a single Brit outside of the slain pilot's family burst into tears.

There was a huge British FF incident in the desert, with hundreds of British soldiers killed.  I believe this was the worst FF case of its kind (exceeding even the three Canadians killed by two American jets in Afghanistan).

The first warship ever sunk by the Luftwaffe was a German destroyer.

In perspective, though, the tolerance of peoples and governments for friendly casualties and even deaths in general has reached allergenic proportions at this point in history.  I mean, the USAAF alone lost thirteen the total number of American deaths in Iraq.  And they killed at least an order of magnitude more.

There's been this weird moralization, and pacifization, of the West since WWII and Vietnam.

[Slargos]

Ah, another American Super Power. Making Excuses.

You Americans really excel at everything. 

You must either stop hating brown people, or hating America, because it is only the latter who kills the former, and vice versa as a matter of fact.

Choose your side, son

My relationship with AmeriKKKa can very much be described as a love-hate relationship. It IS the land of extremes, after all. There is no loving all of it, no matter how hard one tries.

I laughed when they invaded Irak.

I cried when they invaded Serbia.

The first 30 minutes of Saving Private Ryan made me teary-eyed with joy.

The first 30 minutes of the news footage from 9/11 was a source of grief for all western peoples.

There's simply no single answer.

[Ideologue]

I cried when they invaded Serbia.

Man, I remember that.  It was so great.  The wailing and gnashing of teeth as Belgrade wintered without heat or water.

[Slargos]

I cried when they invaded Serbia.

Man, I remember that.  It was so great.  The wailing and gnashing of teeth as Belgrade wintered without heat or water.

Aside from the crime against the Serbian people, it meant another influx of Yugo untermenschen. Thanks a lot, you fucking ass holes.

[Ideologue]

I cried when they invaded Serbia.

Man, I remember that.  It was so great.  The wailing and gnashing of teeth as Belgrade wintered without heat or water.

Aside from the crime against the Serbian people, it meant another influx of Yugo untermenschen. Thanks a lot, you fucking ass holes.

You know what else was great?  Dresden.  We did that, with a little help from our friends.  And then we let the Soviets have what we didn't set on fire.  Good times.

[Slargos]

I cried when they invaded Serbia.

Man, I remember that.  It was so great.  The wailing and gnashing of teeth as Belgrade wintered without heat or water.

Aside from the crime against the Serbian people, it meant another influx of Yugo untermenschen. Thanks a lot, you fucking ass holes.

You know what else was great?  Dresden.  We did that, with a little help from our friends.  And then we let the Soviets have what we didn't set on fire.  Good times.

Thankfully, the racially pure retain the capacity to rise above your petty and barbaric taunts, you filthy mongrel.