Germany - Hungary is a disgrace for Europe.

[Alcibiades]

'Hungary Is a Disgrace for Europe'

The ruling Fidesz party of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban used its two-thirds majority to whip a new constitution through parliament on Monday, and critics across Europe are in uproar. The move, they fear, will convert the party's conservative, nationalist ideology into a state doctrine, cement its power well beyond the end of its term and upset the democratic system of checks and balances.

German Deputy Foreign Minister Werner Hoyer said the constitution was even more worrying than the controversial curbs on the media that came into force in Hungary at the start of the year. "The media law testifies to a view of basic rights that is hard to reconcile with the values of the European Union," Hoyer said in a statement on Monday. "Our fears in relation to the media laws have been heightened rather than allayed by the constitution and by the way it came into being."
Critics say Fidesz should have consulted far more widely when rewriting Hungary's basic law. The Venice Commission, the EU's constitutional law advisory body, has questioned the transparency of the process.

Worrying the Neighbors

The new constitution curbs the powers of the top court in budget and tax matters. Analysts say a major problem is that it would allow Fidesz appointees to control key public institutions -- such as the budget supervisory Fiscal Council -- well beyond its government term, which ends in 2014.

Over the weekend and on Monday, thousands of people protested in the capital, Budapest, against the new basic law. But Fidesz has said that with its big parliament majority, it has the authority to enact changes.

The law is also worrying neighboring governments because it claims Hungary is responsible for Hungarians living in countries bordering Hungary. A quarter of all ethnic Hungarians live in neighboring countries, mainly in Slovakia, Romania and Serbia.

Several German commentators are fiercely critical of the new constitution.

German public television network ARD commentated on its late-night news program Tagesthemen on Monday night:

"It's strange, the more some countries profit from the European Union, the more prone they are to anti-European sentiments. The constitutional state has largely been abolished, future elections are efrfectively meaningless, the media are being whipped into line, as are theaters and museums and everything else that could shape the nation's culture."

"Barely a trace remains of pluralism, of variety, of the basic features of a free society. If you talk to people in Hungary about politics these days, you're confronted with fear, like in the days of East Germany. In this state, Hungary no longer belongs in the EU. It is a disgrace for Europe. But Europe is saying nothing."

Left-wing Berliner Zeitung writes:

"The good Hungarian as the right-wing ruling party of Viktor Orban sees him is a strangely anachronous being: Christian to a fault, awed by his nation's heroic past, more sympathetic to monarchism than republicanism. The good Hungarian sees his place between God -- the first word in the constitution -- and the mythical holy crown. He must be heterosexual and family-oriented in order to live up to the constitution."

"The Orban government wrote, debated and whipped this new Hungarian constitution with its florid, ideology-soaked preamble through parliament on its own. All it needs is the signature of the president who -- how else could it be -- was guided into office by Orban. He has succeeded where the Kaczynski brothers failed in Poland -- to elevate national-conservative ideology to a doctrine of state."

"But the constitution doesn't just postulate an intolerant ideology. The government has also rid itself of central elements of the separation of powers, by weakening the powers of the constitutional court, for example. Around Europe, many people were appalled by the Hungarian media law. The Orban constitution is a much greater scandal."

Center-left Süddeutsche Zeitung writes:

"The constitution enshrines a spirit of ideological, ethnic intolerance, both externally and domestically. Some are being reminded of the fascist rhetoric in Europe between the world wars. Neighboring countries are getting unpleasant memories of the cultural arrogance and power of the Hungary of old, whose Magyarization programs they were subjected to. The new constitution claims that the state of Hungary represents all other Magyars, meaning the three million living in neighboring countries."
Conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung has no problem with the new constitution:

"The preamble may seem antiquated to Western observers. But for the big majority of Hungarians in the country and for the Hungarian minorities abroad, the references to a 'national statement of faith' and a holy crown' are values as worthy of the constitution as are references to God and Christendom and the emphasis on marriage and family as foundations of society and state. There is no evidence in the text that the amendments are not in line with basic European values, as Orban's opponents are claiming."

TL:DR  Hungary sucks for some reason or another.

[Tamas]

 

[Norgy]

Can you give an insider's version?
Is Fidesz worse than Hitler/Hórthy?

[Tamas]

Can you give an insider's version?
Is Fidesz worse than Hitler/Hórthy?

They push every authoritan shit as far as they can, or recon they can. I think we would be even worse off if Europe did not throw that tantrum over the media law.

Their populism is totally fucked up and it puzzles me how a lot of people still can follow them blindly.
For example, this "constitution" is sported as a final break from the communist era (the previous one was a (very severly) altered version of the 1949 one), yet one of the leading members of the commitee preparing it is Imre Pozsgai, an ancient communist, who was a functionary of the communist party prior to '56, was very loud in demonizing the heroes of the '56 revolution, then was the fucking first of the commie leadership to sainthood them 33 years later.

And not just stuff like that, but the way they attempt to and succeed in selling the bluntest improvizations as deeplry rooted long term ideological plans.

Like the whole economic-plan rollercoaster. Since the 2006 riots they had been proclaiming that they were ready to take over the next day. When they finally did, their cluelesness as to what there is to be done became evident very quickly. Well, they knew full well how to monopolize power in the country, but I am speaking in terms of actual policies, especially regarding the budget and the economy.

By almost a year of hindsight, it is fair to assume that their original plan was to stall until the local election during the autumn, then speedily bully the EU into accepting a 7-8% budget deficit (we have been under a 3.8% limit), so they can do whatever they want with the budget, and delay the actual budget cuts.

Needless to say, that spending 8 years among his zombie followers made Orban gravely misjudge Europe.
His trip of bullying saw him come home with a bleeding nose.

It was after this, that they discovered they need to channel private pension payments to the state budget for a year.
Wether this was an ad hoc idea and they thought it would be enough to survive 2011, or just a probing of the public, I am not sure.

But the probing part succeeded magnificently. No significant mass voiced any concern. "private property" and "self-reliance" are shaky and unthrustworthy concepts in our culture, still.

So, near the end of the year, came the bomb: nationalization of the private pension funds. Well, not really, because those who wanted to gamble that FIDESZ would not stay forever could stay, and lose the right fo the state pension coming for 2/3rd of their total pension payments (that 2/3rd made by their employer), while still having to pay it to the state.
I am one of those hundred thousand people BTW (out of 3 million).

That gave them supposedly enough money to avoid budget cuts until the next elections.

Except that apparently it did not. They still havent received the money, but they soon will, and they had plans to spend about 6th of it this year alone.
But the thing is, by the end of February, the budget was in the red as much as they planned to be only by the end of the year.

So now they are announcing some cuts, with which I mostly agree because I know that sometime in our near history they will have to be done.

But either these will be insignificant, but then why are they angering the people, or they will make the pension nationalizing needless, but then why did they do it?

[Tamas]

See, thats the problem with this government, apart from being authocratic assholes: they are just totally unpredictable.

[The Brain]

As long as the Hungarian people thinks that the government is the beet's knees (which they apparently do) then what's the problem?

[Norgy]

I suppose the problem is the same as with Peronist Argentina, Venezuela or other places where authoritarianism and new, improved constitutions and censorship pop up: Brain drain, clientilism (with pay days) and international isolation.

The people who voted for you eventually will want something significant in return. Either you give them what they want and break your financial back or go more authoritarian with an eroded public support with all that entails of investment in repressive measures.

[Jacob]

It might be a little trickier to go Chavez style though, as a member of the EU?

[MadImmortalMan]

Wouldn't the conservatives in Hungary be the communists? That's what going back to the past means, right?

[Norgy]

It might be a little trickier to go Chavez style though, as a member of the EU?

Hopefully.
But would a nationalist, somewhat anti-EU government care about being thrown out?

[Tamas]

It might be a little trickier to go Chavez style though, as a member of the EU?

Hopefully.
But would a nationalist, somewhat anti-EU government care about being thrown out?

The PM's public ars poetica regarding the EU is "we do not believe in the EU. we believe in Hungary. We are with the EU because it is in Hungary's interest". Which is fair enough I guess, but stating this as the president of the EU still sounds strange.

[Tamas]

Wouldn't the conservatives in Hungary be the communists? That's what going back to the past means, right?

oh thats real messy.

basically, everyone but market liberals (who are maybe 2% of the population) are real liberals in the classic sense. All other political ideologies consist a measure of socialism in terms of belief in state regulation of the markets, and heavy reliance on welfare and general government intervention. The only difference is magnitude of that, and the ideology to justify robbing the middle class blind.

But, it is the right (FIDESZ) who is more for state control and turning toward the East in foreign policy, and it is the left (socialists, the former communist party) who are for less market regulations, and a firm stance with the West.

[Martinus]

See, thats the problem with this government, apart from being authocratic assholes: they are just totally unpredictable.

Yeah, that was the worst thing about the (brief) rule of Kaczynskis - you dreaded to open the news each day, because you never knew what they would think up next.

[Martinus]

Wouldn't the conservatives in Hungary be the communists? That's what going back to the past means, right?

The problem with Hungary (and pretty much all of ex-communist Europe) is this: the people in power now went through their formative years when it was "hip to be square", or in other words, you went through the "youth rebellion" by allying with radically conservative, religious forces against the communist state. It is natural for people to grow more conservative as they grow older, but that's all fine and good when you start from a position of socialism, and then grow older moving to move moderate/conservative positions. If you start from being a religious right winger, you end up being a nazi when you are in your 50s.

Turns out Bismarck was right: "who had not been a socialist in their youth, will be a swine in the old age".

[Slargos]

I suppose the problem is the same as with Peronist Argentina, Venezuela or other places where authoritarianism and new, improved constitutions and censorship pop up: Brain drain, clientilism (with pay days) and international isolation.

The people who voted for you eventually will want something significant in return. Either you give them what they want and break your financial back or go more authoritarian with an eroded public support with all that entails of investment in repressive measures.

Concur. People don't know what is best for them and need to be regulated. It is clear that the EU needs to step in when the wrong choices are made in popular elections. Anything else would be undemocratic.