Game of thrones - the books

[Valmy]

I used to stress out about this, but then I realized something...

If Martin drops dead tomorrow, and I never read another word of A Song of Ice and Fire it will still be the best fantasy I've ever read or am likely to ever read. And it isn't even really close.

Hey Berk I want to thank you for encouraging me to read it anyway despite all the snobbery shown towards the series on this board back in the day.  Loving it.

[KRonn]

I used to stress out about this, but then I realized something...

If Martin drops dead tomorrow, and I never read another word of A Song of Ice and Fire it will still be the best fantasy I've ever read or am likely to ever read. And it isn't even really close.

Hey Berk I want to thank you for encouraging me to read it anyway despite all the snobbery shown towards the series on this board back in the day.  Loving it.

I also learned of this book series from the forum, probably Berkut's mention, but also others who gave it very positive reviews.

[grumbler]

All that stuff was in book three.

Hmm.  You are correct.  Book 4 is even less memorable than I had thought.  In any case, not a compliment.  However, the early stuff is worth reading, as I noted, even if one just reads a summary of the plot's ending.

[Valmy]

I also learned of this book series from the forum, probably Berkut's mention, but also others who gave it very positive reviews.

That was probably too strongly said.  There was a thread going back and forth on them and I wasn't sure if it was worth picking up and Berkut told me something like 'just read it.  People are going to hate anything that becoming popular.'  Now that is not entirely fair as certainly grumbles and others certainly have legitimate reasons not to like it but it was what I needed to hear.

[grumbler]

Hey Berk I want to thank you for encouraging me to read it anyway despite all the snobbery shown towards the series on this board back in the day.  Loving it.

I think that the fanboi-ism shouldn't dissuade prospective readers.  It isn't great literature, but it is an excellent fantasy read, for the first few thousand pages, anyway.  The non-fanboi may see a falloff in quality in the later stuff, but that doesn't make the earlier stuff not worth reading.  The Silmariliian isn't as well-written as TLotR, but that doesn't make TLotR not worth reading.

[Valmy]

All that stuff was in book three.

Hmm.  You are correct.  Book 4 is even less memorable than I had thought.  In any case, not a compliment.  However, the early stuff is worth reading, as I noted, even if one just reads a summary of the plot's ending.

One thing I will definitely agree with is that the pacing of the plot in Book 1 is faster than later books.  Which is rather odd considering all the exposition which has to take place, being the first in a series.

[grumbler]

One thing I will definitely agree with is that the pacing of the plot in Book 1 is faster than later books.  Which is rather odd considering all the exposition which has to take place, being the first in a series.

I think what you see is a breakdown in his story-telling discipline, as he adds more and more characters and plots that aren't really part of the main story; if he thinks of them, into the pot they go.  I think he'd have been far better-off leaving those for the comics and the short stories.

David Webber did the same thing with his Honor Harrington books and those have now pretty much stalled as Webber's attention is drawn towards easier-to-tell stories.

[Berkut]

I used to stress out about this, but then I realized something...

If Martin drops dead tomorrow, and I never read another word of A Song of Ice and Fire it will still be the best fantasy I've ever read or am likely to ever read. And it isn't even really close.

Hey Berk I want to thank you for encouraging me to read it anyway despite all the snobbery shown towards the series on this board back in the day.  Loving it.

Glad you like it, and I am an unapologetic evangelist for the series.

None of grumblers complaints are invalid though - the pacing does slow down, the author does seem to get lost later on, etc., etc., etc. But IMO that means that the books go from outstanding to just damn good. Book 4 certainly suffers compared to 1-3, but it is still a hell of a lot better than 98% of the other fantasy that is out there. And I still read the entire book 3 times. And listened to it on audio once.

[The Larch]

All that stuff was in book three.

Hmm.  You are correct.  Book 4 is even less memorable than I had thought.  In any case, not a compliment.  However, the early stuff is worth reading, as I noted, even if one just reads a summary of the plot's ending.

Book 4 has:

- The Greyjoy succession crisis.
- Cersei spiralling out of control as sole ruler of King's Landing.
- Jaime developing a new personality.
- Brienne's quest.
- Sam leaving the Wall for Oldtown in order to become a maester.
- Arya becoming a ninja assassin.
- Sansa being taken by Littlefinger to the Eyrie.
- The introduction of the Martells of Dorne to the Game of Thrones.

Save for a couple of those plots, it is all very interesting material IMO, and sets up events to come that will be important in the future. I imagine that the book is much maligned because it's kind of a "transition" book, more or less like the second, it took ages to be finished, was a bit of a let down after the pivotal third book and it drags a bit because of the rewriting due to the scrapping of the 10 year flash forward. All in all I'd give it a B, and a B+ if you skip Brienne's part.

[Berkut]

One thing I will definitely agree with is that the pacing of the plot in Book 1 is faster than later books.  Which is rather odd considering all the exposition which has to take place, being the first in a series.

I think what you see is a breakdown in his story-telling discipline, as he adds more and more characters and plots that aren't really part of the main story; if he thinks of them, into the pot they go.  I think he'd have been far better-off leaving those for the comics and the short stories.

Yep - he seems to have lost focus almost completely. Hopefully it only seems that way, and the Author in his infinite wisdom, really does have an amazing plan that is going to make it all come back together.

But I suspect that is pretty much like hoping that BSG is somehow going to all come back together and explain everything after season 3. Not fucking likely.

My suspicion is that Martin has 2 basic problems:

1. Lack of the same passion for telling his story, hence he rambles, and
2. He has become so big (figuratively) that nobody has any power to reign him in, so no editor. He is George Lucas.

[The Larch]

One thing I will definitely agree with is that the pacing of the plot in Book 1 is faster than later books.  Which is rather odd considering all the exposition which has to take place, being the first in a series.

I think what you see is a breakdown in his story-telling discipline, as he adds more and more characters and plots that aren't really part of the main story; if he thinks of them, into the pot they go.  I think he'd have been far better-off leaving those for the comics and the short stories.

Yep - he seems to have lost focus almost completely. Hopefully it only seems that way, and the Author in his infinite wisdom, really does have an amazing plan that is going to make it all come back together.

But I suspect that is pretty much like hoping that BSG is somehow going to all come back together and explain everything after season 3. Not fucking likely.

My suspicion is that Martin has 2 basic problems:

1. Lack of the same passion for telling his story, hence he rambles, and
2. He has become so big (figuratively) that nobody has any power to reign him in, so no editor. He is George Lucas.

IMO the biggest factor afecting the stumping of the narrative in the fourth book is the scrapping of the 10 year flash forward, which was Martin's original plan. He had to rework everything at that point and move away from his original vision, and it can be seen. I hope that for the fifth he'll already have things figured out.

[Valmy]

Yep - he seems to have lost focus almost completely. Hopefully it only seems that way, and the Author in his infinite wisdom, really does have an amazing plan that is going to make it all come back together.

We will see.  It seems like the story is starting to come into focus for the final showdown but obviously what is in Book 5 will either show that or not.

[Gups]

Book 4 has:

- The Greyjoy succession crisis.
- Cersei spiralling out of control as sole ruler of King's Landing.
- Jaime developing a new personality.
- Brienne's quest.
- Sam leaving the Wall for Oldtown in order to become a maester.
- Arya becoming a ninja assassin.
- Sansa being taken by Littlefinger to the Eyrie.
- The introduction of the Martells of Dorne to the Game of Thrones.

Save for a couple of those plots, it is all very interesting material IMO, and sets up events to come that will be important in the future. I imagine that the book is much maligned because it's kind of a "transition" book, more or less like the second, it took ages to be finished, was a bit of a let down after the pivotal third book and it drags a bit because of the rewriting due to the scrapping of the 10 year flash forward. All in all I'd give it a B, and a B+ if you skip Brienne's part.

You see, I'd put it the other way round. The Cersei plot is good, Jamie turns into a much more interesting character (though you really have to suspend your disbelief). The Sansa, Arya and Sam plots are OK (Littlefinger is cool) I guess but the rest of it pretty tedious. IIRC (and I've only read the book once, when it came out) the Brienne, Iron Island and Dorne plots were the bulk of it and they were just boring. But worst of all, Martin's writing really deteriorated. Started repeating himself lots and using crap faux medievalisms a lot more.

If DofD gets good reviews I'd like to re-read the series but I may take Grumbler's advice and just read the plot summary of Feast.

[HisMajestyBOB]

I used to stress out about this, but then I realized something...

If Martin drops dead tomorrow, and I never read another word of A Song of Ice and Fire it will still be the best fantasy I've ever read or am likely to ever read. And it isn't even really close.

Hey Berk I want to thank you for encouraging me to read it anyway despite all the snobbery shown towards the series on this board back in the day.  Loving it.

I also learned of this book series from the forum, probably Berkut's mention, but also others who gave it very positive reviews.

Same here.

[Gups]

I think Berkie recommended it to me too. Christ must be 10 years ago now. I feel old