The Fed Shutdown Poll and Megathread

[DGuller]

Hans believes that Bill Gates should pay the same amount in taxes as a homeless man.

[mosschops]

That's probably why 8 years of Republican government has left the US with an equality index more or less the same as Russia I guess.

[Sheilbh]

The top 1% get almost 25% of the income in the US, if you expand that to the top quintile then that increases massively as well. You need to look at that to get a concept of a "fair share" rather than the tax take.

But even if you adjust for that the US system's an outlier.  I can't find the chart but there was one recently of OECD countries that compared the top earners share of income tax with their share of national income.  Countries with high countries, like France and Sweden, actually are close to 1-to-1, because everyone pays for their welfare state.  The US was the most extremely out-of-sync. 

Edit:  I'd also add that I believe in a universal welfare state because I think it ties society together as opposed to a welfare state that only helps the extremely poor.  In addition I think that sort of very means tested system breeds contempt and that, bluntly, a welfare state for the poor is a poor welfare state.  But I think there's a similar bargain with tax and paying for it which means you can't depend on taxing the rich, or property or whatever.

[mosschops]

The top 1% get almost 25% of the income in the US, if you expand that to the top quintile then that increases massively as well. You need to look at that to get a concept of a "fair share" rather than the tax take.

But even if you adjust for that the US system's an outlier.  I can't find the chart but there was one recently of OECD countries that compared the top earners share of income tax with their share of national income.  Countries with high countries, like France and Sweden, actually are close to 1-to-1, because everyone pays for their welfare state.  The US was the most extremely out-of-sync. 

Edit:  I'd also add that I believe in a universal welfare state because I think it ties society together as opposed to a welfare state that only helps the extremely poor.  In addition I think that sort of very means tested system breeds contempt and that, bluntly, a welfare state for the poor is a poor welfare state.  But I think there's a similar bargain with tax and paying for it which means you can't depend on taxing the rich, or property or whatever.

The US is an outlier though due to the massive disparity. The very rich there are increasing their share of national income at the expenses of the middle classes and has done for the past 30 years or so. The top level paying more as a percentage is a function of that. If Hans wants them to pay less as a percentage then they should be looking to make the majority richer, rather than reducing the burden on the rich.

[MadImmortalMan]

The US is an outlier though due to the massive disparity. The very rich there are increasing their share of national income at the expenses of the middle classes and has done for the past 30 years or so. The top level paying more as a percentage is a function of that. If Hans wants them to pay less as a percentage then they should be looking to make the majority richer, rather than reducing the burden on the rich.

He would say the one leads to the other, of course.

[mosschops]

And yet you get countries like Brazil who have tightened their income disparities having very strong economies at the moment. I thought trickle-down theory went out with the 80s.

[Sheilbh]

The US is an outlier though due to the massive disparity. The very rich there are increasing their share of national income at the expenses of the middle classes and has done for the past 30 years or so. The top level paying more as a percentage is a function of that. If Hans wants them to pay less as a percentage then they should be looking to make the majority richer, rather than reducing the burden on the rich.

I don't think the disparity matters as they're adjusting for it.  They're comparing amount of income tax receipts from the rich with share of national income of the rich. 

But I don't buy this.  First of all I don't like the deification of the middle class they have a social responsibility to pay their fair share of taxes just as they have rights under a universal welfare state.  Secondly, though I'm a strong redistributionist, the tax system's a monstrous inefficient way of doing it.

To be honest I find this one of the most frustrating aspects of the American left - it was woefully on display in the argument over extending the Bush tax cuts.  It seemed like the entire goal and purpose of the policy was simply to tax the rich more almost for the sake of it.

I do think inequality's an issue generally.  My own sense is that what's really happening though isn't quite so simple.  My impression is that there's a growing gap between the merely rich and the truly rich which has been exacerbated by the norms in the finance sector and, in the UK, the odd oligarch and the like.  That I think's distorting figures, so the respectable rich are still not too distant from the 'middle class', but the filty rich are moving on.

[CountDeMoney]

To be honest I find this one of the most frustrating aspects of the American left - it was woefully on display in the argument over extending the Bush tax cuts.  It seemed like the entire goal and purpose of the policy was simply to tax the rich more almost for the sake of it.

You make that sound like a bad thing.

[Admiral Yi]

I would be interested to know what radical life change Seedy experienced in the last four months or so that changed him from a tribalist to a dyed-in-the-wool Kucinichite.

[CountDeMoney]

I would be interested to know what radical life change Seedy experienced in the last four months or so that changed him from a tribalist to a dyed-in-the-wool Kucinichite.

It's been gestating much longer than that, and you know it.  It's just gained substantially more momentum during my beloved black President's term.

[Admiral Yi]

It's been gestating much longer than that, and you know it.  It's just gained substantially more momentum during my beloved black President's term.

No I don't.  It seems one day you just pushed a button.

[Ed Anger]

The tea party would make any sane man froth. I know they push my buttons.

[CountDeMoney]

It's been gestating much longer than that, and you know it.  It's just gained substantially more momentum during my beloved black President's term.

No I don't.  It seems one day you just pushed a button.

I think Wisconsin did it.  That, and all you Teabagger fucks around here, what with your Teabaggery and Teabagging ways and whatnot.

[MadImmortalMan]

How many ultra-rich people does the US have compared to other places, anyway? How much does that contribute to the difference?

[Ed Anger]

I think Wisconsin did it. 

I think it fired up my old UMWA sympathies. This country needs a couple more bloody Harlans.