Game of Thrones begins....

[viper37]

The only reason they wrote is as they did is they needed some reason for the battle to go terribly wrong so Jon would need to be saved at the last moment.

Since Season 1, you have Eddard Stark, Rob Stark and Jon Snow saying, every time they can, that discipline beats number 9 times out of 10.
Jon Snow uses that line when defending Castle Black against the Wildlings.

For this battle, he had neither the numbers, nor the discipline, as evidenced by Thormund's lack of understanding of basic military strategy.  And he himself lost it after seeing his brother shot dead.

To do it as you imply, it would require:
a) breaking with everything we know about the established lore, mainly that a bunch of undisciplined, yet brave warriors, in numerical inferiority can beat a seasoned army, clad in iron armor and shields
b) that Jon be as heartless as Sansa toward Rickon, assuming he is already dead, something he did not want to consider.

Had they written it some other way, I am sure you would be telling us THAT way was the only possible way it could be written, and certainly the best possible way.

It would have required for things to be very different since the beginning of the show.  Because right now, it is very consistent with the established lore of the show, in the books and in the tv series.

[Berkut]

Right, so this was the only possible way it could be written. The poor writers were sitting there racking their brains about how to make this come out, and decided that this was it - the only way it could be done, and any other story told in any other manner would have viper up in arms about the violation of lore.

Lucky for everyone but me, they happened to get it just right. They are, in fact, perfect in their writing in every way - but of course that is because there is only one possible way to write the story, which just so happens to be exactly the way it is written. Nothing else would be believable in a story about magic and heroes.

[Berkut]

Lets take this apart piece by piece.

To do it as you imply, it would require:
a) breaking with everything we know about the established lore, mainly that a bunch of undisciplined, yet brave warriors, in numerical inferiority can beat a seasoned army, clad in iron armor and shields

This comes back to your lack of imagination. Putting aside for the moment the idea that writers of fiction are incapable of coming up with a scenario where the side expected to lose might win (which, btw, is exactly what happened, it just took some deus ex to make it happen), my implication was that there didn't need to be a battle on those terms in any case.

I put together several scenarios that would make more sense. If you must have a battle, simply have the Knights show up before the fight. Have some knights join Jon. Don't have the fight at that time at all.

You do realize that the writers have the power to make this shit up themselves, right? They are not required to put Jon and his forces into the position where it is required to have some deus ex solution.

Hell, even grumbler had a easy, trivial, and 100% better idea to handle part of this - just have the Knights and Littlefinger perfectly aware of the fight and just waiting until Jons forces were almost wiped out to save the day.

The writers get to set the stage of the fight, not just the outcome of it.

b) that Jon be as heartless as Sansa toward Rickon, assuming he is already dead, something he did not want to consider.

Again, only an issue if you have so little imagination that you can't imagine them writing the episode such that Jon is not put in a situation where he has to act like a fucking idiot or let Rickon die.

The writers created that scene as well, it was not handed to them and they had to deal with it in some reasonable fashion.

Ramsay could have left Rickon behind, he could have killed Rickon before letting Jon interfere in any way, they could have had some Wildlings and Jon go and rescue Rickon, they could have had Rickon jump off the wall of Winterfell, which by all accounts is incredibly high, and land in some handy soft patch of snow...of wait, they already did that one, didn't they - and THAT was the only possible way they could have handled that story arc as well, I am sure.

Had they written it some other way, I am sure you would be telling us THAT way was the only possible way it could be written, and certainly the best possible way.

It would have required for things to be very different since the beginning of the show.  Because right now, it is very consistent with the established lore of the show, in the books and in the tv series.

No, the established lore of the show is not that Jon is a fucking idiot who needs to be saved by someone else constantly. There are a million different ways to tell the basic story of how Jon and Sansa retake Winterfell from Ramsay, and very few of them *require* Jon to be portrayed as a complete and total chump who deserved to die.

[Sophie Scholl]

grumbler liked my idea!  ...granted he attributed it to Berkut, but hey, you can't win them all!   I like your option as well, grumbler, with Littlefinger and friend watching and waiting.  That level of plotting and scheming is what has fallen off in my opinion from the Martin days the most.  It could be the lack of Littlefinger, the death of Tywin, and/or the exile of Tyrion, but everything has been rash and telegraphed of late.

[Admiral Yi]

The false conversion of Littletits has some subtlety to it.

[grumbler]

grumbler liked my idea!  ...granted he attributed it to Berkut, but hey, you can't win them all!   I like your option as well, grumbler, with Littlefinger and friend watching and waiting.  That level of plotting and scheming is what has fallen off in my opinion from the Martin days the most.  It could be the lack of Littlefinger, the death of Tywin, and/or the exile of Tyrion, but everything has been rash and telegraphed of late.

Sorry if I mis-attributed that idea.  It certainly wasn't original.

And I agree with you that the showrunners should have let Tywin live.  He was a much more interesting character than almost anyone else in King's Landing, and he could still have been absent when Cersei screwed up and empowered the High Sparrow.  Him versus the HS would make for some compelling TV.  The showrunners probably listened a little too much to GRRM in that case.

[viper37]

You do realize that the writers have the power to make this shit up themselves, right? They are not required to put Jon and his forces into the position where it is required to have some deus ex solution.

The Knights of the Vale are farther from Winterfell than Jon Snow's army is.  Of course, he could have waited Littlefinger.  But he did not want to call on Littlefinger, because he did no trust him.  Nobody should trust Littlefinger, apparently.  Those who trusted Littlefinger have had bad things happen to them.

You have a sister, she is under the protection of a man, and that man marries her to the most fucked up psychopath in the entire Seven Kingdom.  Oh, btw, let's wait for that super reliable guy to come here and join us while the ennemy is aware of our movement and reinforcing himself.

That makes total sense.

Hell, even grumbler had a easy, trivial, and 100% better idea to handle part of this - just have the Knights and Littlefinger perfectly aware of the fight and just waiting until Jons forces were almost wiped out to save the day.

That's pretty much what happens.  Who knows what happens behind the scene?  Did he rush to the rescue of his princess or did he wait a little more to attack and make the rescue even more spectacular?

The writers get to set the stage of the fight, not just the outcome of it.

True.  But the moment Stannis army has deserted him and what is left is dead, all you have is a few northern lords not too afraid with Bolton and a few Wildlings who got crushed by a dozen Nightwatch.

Again, only an issue if you have so little imagination that you can't imagine them writing the episode such that Jon is not put in a situation where he has to act like a fucking idiot or let Rickon die.

It would have required Rickon to not be captured by them Umbers and delivered to Bolton.
And keeping him alive meant a threat to Sansa's rule.  And she'd be surbordinate to a man, again.
In case you haven't noticed, there's a certain tendancy for women to take control of things in this show, and not be simple homewives sewing at home waiting for their valliant husbands.

The writers created that scene as well, it was not handed to them and they had to deal with it in some reasonable fashion.

True, but Rickon needs to disapear for Sansa to rule. It would be pretty stupid to have a little boy coming out litterrally out of nowhere (in the books, he is still below 10, IIRC, and they want to keep a very similar ending to what the author has envisionned, meaning, Sansa Warden of the North, Daenerys and Jon Snow defeating the White Walkers, as prophesized in Bran's dream).

Ramsey can't kill him before the battle, it's an hostage, he has some uses.  The moment Jon Snow makes his move with Sansa, Rickon is expandable.  And he needs to die to clear the way for Sansa.  Do it there, or do it later, better to do it now, even if it's stupid because he runs in a straight line.

Ramsay could have left Rickon behind, he could have killed Rickon before letting Jon interfere in any way,

No.  There is still a chance there won't be a battle with Rickon alive. And besides, he is a pyschopath.  Killing him and delivering his head to Jon Snow does not have the same impact as "freeing" him to kill him right in front of Jon's eyes.  By doing this, he provokes Jon into attacking him, which is what he wants.  For once, someone thinks with his head and you complain

they could have had some Wildlings and Jon go and rescue Rickon, they could have had Rickon jump off the wall of Winterfell, which by all accounts is incredibly high, and land in some handy soft patch of snow...of wait, they already did that one, didn't they - and THAT was the only possible way they could have handled that story arc as well, I am sure.

sure.  Sansa got away like that, with the help of Theon Greyjoy, while she was locked up in her room on the second floor of the castle, close to the battlements.  But hey, Rickon, all alone, from his cell, in the underground dungeon, he would escape, go into the courtyard, climb the battlements, jump in the snow and move toward Castle Black.  All of this without attracting any attention whatsoever and with sufficient delay to avoid being catched up, which is what happenned to Sansa, who had some help in escaping.

Sure, that works, and does not sound totally stupid.  It is only my lack of imagination if I did not think of that.

It's far easier in the books, because it's not Sansa that gets married to Bolton, it's Jeyne Poole. You can argue it works better that way, and I'm inclined to agree with you.  However, it is a tv series with a finite budget, not a book.  Adding a character that appears 2 or 3 times in the series until she escapes from Winterfell to reach Stannis' camp will costs money that you won't have for, oh say, a gigantic freaking battle?

No, the established lore of the show is not that Jon is a fucking idiot who needs to be saved by someone else constantly.

Really?
I did not read nor see that, except when he got killed by his own men.
So far, he successfully infiltrated the Wildlings, warned Castle Black of their attack, push it back, captured Mance Rayder, and rescued other Wildlings before being stabbed to death.
The dire situation with an understaffed Wall wasn't really his fault.

[Berkut]

You've convinced me. There is no way the story could be written in any other way. This is it. Nothing else would make sense.

[Martim Silva]

The firing arrows into your own troops kind of bothered me as well, but on the other hand I've always thought that Ramsay was a ridiculous character anyway.

Nobody would follow that guy. The way he acts is in direct contradiction to the social structure he exists in, which is based on loyalty, charisma, honor, and structure. People don't tolerate lords who just butcher everyone else, at least not openly. You have to have some ability to instill some sense of loyalty in your followers, they have to *like* you at some level, especially if you do NOT have the social status granted by birth to lean on. Joffrey can get away with being a piece of shit (oh wait, no he can't, he get killed for being a piece of shit that nobody liked) for a while. Ramsay could not.

The only thing I thought of when watching that scene was:

"We Have Reserves"



And the idea of "rip-off" kept nagging at me the whole time. 

[Sophie Scholl]

grumbler liked my idea!  ...granted he attributed it to Berkut, but hey, you can't win them all!   I like your option as well, grumbler, with Littlefinger and friend watching and waiting.  That level of plotting and scheming is what has fallen off in my opinion from the Martin days the most.  It could be the lack of Littlefinger, the death of Tywin, and/or the exile of Tyrion, but everything has been rash and telegraphed of late.

Sorry if I mis-attributed that idea.  It certainly wasn't original.

And I agree with you that the showrunners should have let Tywin live.  He was a much more interesting character than almost anyone else in King's Landing, and he could still have been absent when Cersei screwed up and empowered the High Sparrow.  Him versus the HS would make for some compelling TV.  The showrunners probably listened a little too much to GRRM in that case.

Apologies.  I must have pirated the idea from someone who I never read, as I thought it was original and coming from my own imagination at the time.  Stupid brain, I shall have to stab thee with a sharp object again for thy insolence!  (Insert young Homer Simpson with crayon picture here)

[grumbler]

grumbler liked my idea!  ...granted he attributed it to Berkut, but hey, you can't win them all!   I like your option as well, grumbler, with Littlefinger and friend watching and waiting.  That level of plotting and scheming is what has fallen off in my opinion from the Martin days the most.  It could be the lack of Littlefinger, the death of Tywin, and/or the exile of Tyrion, but everything has been rash and telegraphed of late.

Sorry if I mis-attributed that idea.  It certainly wasn't original.

And I agree with you that the showrunners should have let Tywin live.  He was a much more interesting character than almost anyone else in King's Landing, and he could still have been absent when Cersei screwed up and empowered the High Sparrow.  Him versus the HS would make for some compelling TV.  The showrunners probably listened a little too much to GRRM in that case.

Apologies.  I must have pirated the idea from someone who I never read, as I thought it was original and coming from my own imagination at the time.  Stupid brain, I shall have to stab thee with a sharp object again for thy insolence!  (Insert young Homer Simpson with crayon picture here)

I meant original to me!    I knew that it wasn't, and didn't present it as such, I just misremembered who had said it.

You were the first I have encountered to suggest the idea.

[viper37]

The only thing I thought of when watching that scene was:

"We Have Reserves"



And the idea of "rip-off" kept nagging at me the whole time. 

that, and that scene where Theon Greyjoy escapes the Bolton's castle with help from one guy who shoots at ennemy troops pursuing them, and it turns out it was Ramsey and these were his own troops.

[Martinus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0dA9eUP85s

[Sophie Scholl]

I meant original to me!    I knew that it wasn't, and didn't present it as such, I just misremembered who had said it.

You were the first I have encountered to suggest the idea.

[grumbler]

Just had a thought, Berkut:  what if Sansa deliberately set up Jon (and Rickon) in cooperation with Littlefinger?  Rickon, of course, stood in the way of her becoming the Lady of Winterfell.  Jon, with a loyal army, was a counterweight to anything Sansa and Littlefinger wanted to do.  If that army was mostly wiped out, though, Jon is a nobody any more. Sansa has the Stark name, not Jon.  It could have been Sansa telling Littlefinger not to attack until she joined Littlefinger.

Could Sansa now be that cold-blooded?  What she did to Ramsay may be more telling than we knew.

That would also absolve Jon of a lot of the blame for the battle plan misfiring.  She didn't really tell him what she thought Ramsay was going to do to bait Jon (nor even that Ramsay WAS going to bait Jon).

I think I'd like that plot twist a lot.