Game of Thrones begins....

[viper37]

How does that work? He'll be at Oldtown for years. Is he going to run to Oldtown and catch a ship back to the wall and skip Maester training?

Eventually, he and Jon will meet again.  I just don't think we'll follow Samwell Tarly on his adventures in training as a maester, it's not really fascinating in a world where there are sorceresses, fanatic priests, dragons and mongol-like riders allied with an highly trained eunuch army preparing to face zombies vulnerable to fire

[grumbler]

How does that work? He'll be at Oldtown for years. Is he going to run to Oldtown and catch a ship back to the wall and skip Maester training?

Eventually, he and Jon will meet again.  I just don't think we'll follow Samwell Tarly on his adventures in training as a maester, it's not really fascinating in a world where there are sorceresses, fanatic priests, dragons and mongol-like riders allied with an highly trained eunuch army preparing to face zombies vulnerable to fire

I don't think Samwell will become a maester.  The show won't last long enough for that.  I suspect that he will find out some vital secret and rush back to the North long before he finishes training.

[Berkut]

How does that work? He'll be at Oldtown for years. Is he going to run to Oldtown and catch a ship back to the wall and skip Maester training?

Eventually, he and Jon will meet again.  I just don't think we'll follow Samwell Tarly on his adventures in training as a maester, it's not really fascinating in a world where there are sorceresses, fanatic priests, dragons and mongol-like riders allied with an highly trained eunuch army preparing to face zombies vulnerable to fire

I am a little worried we are going to get some temporal disconnect. Or rather, more of them, since we have already had some.

Martin's plan was always to have a gap in time to allow some of the characters to grow up a little, and presumably allow Sam to get his training. That is no longer in the plan, so I don't know how Sam is going to work.

It won't terrible surprise me if they just have Sam show up with a chain at some point, and it won't make any damn sense at all how it happened.

[grumbler]

So, what game is Margaery playing? I mean, I suppose her short term goal was "get myself out of prison" but in the long run? I am pretty sure she is not a true convert.

Power.  Keeping Cersei marginalized.

Good thinking. It's been a while so I forgot the rivalry between the two of them. But it's a tricky, and dangerous, game to play. Now she has an alliance of sorts with the cultish religion, an enmity with the ruthless Cersei. But also, Cersei is a bit stuck with her son the King being in the alliance along with Margery. This power play's twists and turns will be interesting.

Yeah.  The struggle will be over who has Tommen's loyalties.  I rather suspect that Cersei will lose this battle, and take some step to reverse her loss that will lead, by mischance, to Tommen's death.

[viper37]

All these mofos? Who the fuck are they? Do any of them even have names? Am I supposed to care about them at all?

do we care about the unsullied?  Do they have names?  We know Grey Worm, but aside that?

they are cannon fodder, we ain't supposed to care about them.  It might just be that half of them will sink with their ship on their way to Westeros.

[The Minsky Moment]

It won't terrible surprise me if they just have Sam show up with a chain at some point, and it won't make any damn sense at all how it happened.

Course credit for his work at the Wall. 

[viper37]

She had all of that with Drogo's khalasar of course - making them into something more and presumably better than what they were. I am not sure I understand the point of the story arc around her losing *her* Dothraki and replacing them with these guys.

They are her.  Not Drogo's.  Her's.
And she reminds them of that little fact with the dragon scene.

[viper37]

If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

yeah, the people don't care much about who rules them.  Lion, Wolf or Dragon, it's pretty much the same to them.

[The Larch]

How does that work? He'll be at Oldtown for years. Is he going to run to Oldtown and catch a ship back to the wall and skip Maester training?

Eventually, he and Jon will meet again.  I just don't think we'll follow Samwell Tarly on his adventures in training as a maester, it's not really fascinating in a world where there are sorceresses, fanatic priests, dragons and mongol-like riders allied with an highly trained eunuch army preparing to face zombies vulnerable to fire

I don't think Samwell will become a maester.  The show won't last long enough for that.  I suspect that he will find out some vital secret and rush back to the North long before he finishes training.

No way they are going to show us Sam's school years. In the books he meets Marwyn upon arrival and he tells him to get back to the Wall as soon as he's done in the Citadel while he goes to find Dany. I guess they'll skip that and have Sam either join Marwyn in their quest to meet Dany or go back to the Wall immediately.

[The Larch]

If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

yeah, the people don't care much about who rules them.  Lion, Wolf or Dragon, it's pretty much the same to them.

Yup, Jorah basically removed that idealism from her back at the beginning, when she was younger and asked him if people still cheered in secret about the return of the Targaryens, and he told her that line about smallfolk not caring about who rules them as long as they're ok.

[viper37]

If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

This may be so, but the books and show have indicated just the opposite, up until now.  She considers herself the rightful ruler, and wants to save the people from the usurpers and the wars they have caused.  She is more sympathetic to the plight of the commoners than any of her rivals.

No, not really.  In both books and shows, it's about her rule.  She is the legitimate heir, the others are usurpers.  She believes she is right for the people, just as Louis XVI thought France could not survive without him.
Just because slavery is abolished does not mean she cares about the commoners.  It's unlikely there would be anything but a renewed feodal system with minor adjustements in Westeros following her take on power.  And her arrival will certainly intensify the current civil war.

[Berkut]

If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

yeah, the people don't care much about who rules them.  Lion, Wolf or Dragon, it's pretty much the same to them.

They don't care because the people who rule them don't care about them - that has been the consistent theme in the books, and the contrast of that with those who presumably WOULD care is driving much of the narrative.

The difference between the Joffries (actively malevolent) and the Roberts (actively indifferent) and presumably the "good guys" (Ned, Rob, even Stannis or Renly, and presumably Dany) is a key message of the show.

[viper37]

If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

yeah, the people don't care much about who rules them.  Lion, Wolf or Dragon, it's pretty much the same to them.

They don't care because the people who rule them don't care about them - that has been the consistent theme in the books, and the contrast of that with those who presumably WOULD care is driving much of the narrative.

The difference between the Joffries (actively malevolent) and the Roberts (actively indifferent) and presumably the "good guys" (Ned, Rob, even Stannis or Renly, and presumably Dany) is a key message of the show.

In the first episode, we see Ned executing presumed deserters from the Wall.  No questions asked, they deserted, they die.  Doesn't matter what they've seen, why they went running from their post despite years of loyal service, they are dead.

Rob Stark betrayed his word to Walder Frey and had one of his most loyal servant executed because he killed a Lannister prisoner of war, an ennemy.

I don't think there are any really good guys in this show, just less slightly worst.  A stable boy is a stable boy.  There is no social ascension.  Yes, Dany makes things differently on her side of the world.  She starts with nothing and she grows into something.  She builds an empire, but it's unclear how social relations work in there.  Obviously, there is nobility, but she rules one city, not one empire.  How could she convince anyone to join her by telling them "btw, once we're done, your castle, your priviledges, they all go away to the people you will now serve" ?


It's in the 2nd book, I think, when Arya meets the rebels who tells her that Wolf of Lion, it's all the same to them.  Presumably, for these folks, any lord is a lord and they are all treated unfairly.  It may not be how the nobles see themselves, but it's how the common folks see it.

[The Minsky Moment]

Dany's claim to be a "good guy" is her liberation of the slaves, but she doesn't have the patience for governance.  The show has made that clear with Tyrion coming in to try to fix things up with the kind of messy politics Dany sees herself as above.  Martin is about subversion of trope - the real "good guys" in his narratives are misfits and outsiders.  Dany may mean well in her own mind and even intend good (Jaime Lannister could and does say the same), but the reality is everything she achieved has been at the point of the sword or by literally burning up those who would oppose her. 

[grumbler]

If Dany ever goes to Westeros it will be as a conqueror, not as a saviour. She wants to claim her birthright, "what is hers", not to save the people.

This may be so, but the books and show have indicated just the opposite, up until now.  She considers herself the rightful ruler, and wants to save the people from the usurpers and the wars they have caused.  She is more sympathetic to the plight of the commoners than any of her rivals.

No, not really.  In both books and shows, it's about her rule.  She is the legitimate heir, the others are usurpers.  She believes she is right for the people, just as Louis XVI thought France could not survive without him.

No, not really.  She is, as Jorah Mormont says, a unique claimant to the throne: ""You have a good claim: a title, a birthright. But you have something more than that: you may cover it up and deny it, but you have a gentle heart. You would be not only respected and feared, you would be loved. Someone who can rule and should rule."  She doesn't even desire to rule Westeros until she hears of King Robert's death and the war that has ensued.

Just because slavery is abolished does not mean she cares about the commoners.  It's unlikely there would be anything but a renewed feodal system with minor adjustements in Westeros following her take on power.  And her arrival will certainly intensify the current civil war.

Of course there will be a feudal system.  The entire basis of society in Westeros is feudal.  That doesn't mean that there cannot be more protections for the commoners.  Abolishing slavery shows that she does care about the commons.