Game of Thrones begins....

[Josquius]

I wonder what little finger is up to at the moment.
He does seem to have sort of just dumped Sansa there and dropped what he was doing to head back to kings landing.
He heard about the rise of the faith and realised what it means far more than do  great houses do?

And yes. TV series Ramsay seems a bit too in control. He is an evil git but very smart and on top of things with it. Book Ramsay seemed a lot more just a spoiled noble who was a psychopath. His intelligence was on a far more individual one to one level, ie Reek.
Strange he hasn't tried to break/train Sansa in a more cunning way.

[grumbler]

We haven't had our discussion of the best line of the week yet.  I nominate Daario Naharis's line to Dani: "All rulers are either butchers, or meat."

[The Minsky Moment]

You should go back and re-watch the episode where the fate of Littlefinger is entirely in her power.

Yes in theory that was so but presumably she didn't reveal herself then for the same reason she didn't in the books.

By the time she is at the gates of Winterfell and Littlefinger does the big reveal she is out of viable options.

[crazy canuck]

You should go back and re-watch the episode where the fate of Littlefinger is entirely in her power.

Yes in theory that was so but presumably she didn't reveal herself then for the same reason she didn't in the books.

By the time she is at the gates of Winterfell and Littlefinger does the big reveal she is out of viable options.

The problem is that they shot that scene in a way that gave the impression that she had a real choice to make.  In fact Littlefinger expressly gave her the choice not to go through with it.  It was not through any threat, express or implied, that convinced her.  He appealed to her to make a rational decision.  My argument is that the reason she made the choice doesn't make much sense in the context of what she knew was happening in the North, her relationship with Littlefinger and most importantly her character arc to that point in time.

[crazy canuck]

I wonder what little finger is up to at the moment.
He does seem to have sort of just dumped Sansa there and dropped what he was doing to head back to kings landing.
He heard about the rise of the faith and realised what it means far more than do  great houses do?

He was summoned to meet with Cersie via crow dispatched to the Vale.  Remember Cersie thought Littlefinger was still in the Vale. If she ever finds out Littlefinger was actually at Winterfell when he received her summons he is toast.  But has he says often - he is taking great risk for great reward.  Littlefinger is a character the show has portrayed very well.   

[Josephus]

We haven't had our discussion of the best line of the week yet.  I nominate Daario Naharis's line to Dani: "All rulers are either butchers, or meat."

"in my dream I was an old man"

[Berkut]

You should go back and re-watch the episode where the fate of Littlefinger is entirely in her power.

Yes in theory that was so but presumably she didn't reveal herself then for the same reason she didn't in the books.

By the time she is at the gates of Winterfell and Littlefinger does the big reveal she is out of viable options.

The problem is that they shot that scene in a way that gave the impression that she had a real choice to make.  In fact Littlefinger expressly gave her the choice not to go through with it.  It was not through any threat, express or implied, that convinced her.  He appealed to her to make a rational decision.  My argument is that the reason she made the choice doesn't make much sense in the context of what she knew was happening in the North, her relationship with Littlefinger and most importantly her character arc to that point in time.

I agree, except that the choice does make sense if you assume that she is at least starting down the path of being a player instead of a playee, which is what I think we all kind of assumed. Yeah, she is going into a very dangerous place, but she is doing it because she thinks it is her chance to exact vengeance, not because she doesn't have any better options and is just hoping for the best.

This was presented to her as a choice, and Littlefinger gave her the option (or at least seemed to give her the option) of walking away.

Now, it is a little unfair of us to complain NOW about her taking that option and saying it was foolish - why didn't we complain then?

Because we all thought this was Sansa's moment to truly start manipulating others, to Littlefinger the Bolton's.

And it may very well be that in the end - but the last two episodes, IMO, show her character taking a huge step back, and rather than controlling what is happening, she is back to reacting to what is happening to her, and doing so largely through hoping that others will protect or save her. Theon is her new Ser Dontos.

[Berkut]

We haven't had our discussion of the best line of the week yet.  I nominate Daario Naharis's line to Dani: "All rulers are either butchers, or meat."

"in my dream I was an old man"

What was the quote that Ramsey said to Sansa? Something about watching her grow up, and now he could watch her become a woman.

I don't think it was that great a quote, but I do think it was interesting how they chose to shoot that scene - almost completely from Theon's point of view. Like the story of Sansa Stark and Ramsey is really a story about Theon, more than it is about Sansa?

[Martinus]

It was "I dreamed I was an old man" and they were last words of Maester Aemon.

[Solmyr]

I don't think that is true at all - power and influence in Westeros is mostly about relationships, family relationships, and the Stark-Arryn relationship is very well established.

Insofar as I can tell, the only Stark/Arryn relationship was that Eddard was fostered by Jon.  That was a personal, not a family, relationship.  Insofar as I know, there were no marriages between the two houses, which is the basis for family relationships in Westeros.

Sansa is also the first cousin of the Lord of the Vale.

[grumbler]

Sansa is also the first cousin of the Lord of the Vale.

Though the Tullys, not the Starks.  She would have been sheltered there, but I don't think they'd go to war for her.  If Robyn was old enough and cared enough, that link would be more important.

[Berkut]

Sansa is also the first cousin of the Lord of the Vale.

Though the Tullys, not the Starks.  She would have been sheltered there, but I don't think they'd go to war for her.  If Robyn was old enough and cared enough, that link would be more important.

Why do they need to go to war for her for that to be an option if she didn't think marrying Ramsey was a great plan?

The point here is that there were other plausible options for her assuming she is NOT actively thinking about using the "Go to Winterfell, marry Ramsey" plan as a means to get what she really wants (whatever that is, presumably vengeance).

If Sansa at the point of decision (when LF tells her she can go to Winterfell or not) is not yet a "player" since she hasn't been raped yet, then choosing to go to Winterfell and marry Ramsey is a terrible choice. It only really makes sense if we accept that *at that point* she had already gone from being this passive pawn to being someone who has learned how to at least start playing the Game of Thrones enough to actually be scheming.

If she is not playing, then the odds of her going to Winterfell, marrying Ramsey, and having something good come out of that are incredibly small. She would be much better off being sheltered in the Vale then being the wife of one of her worst enemies.

I think this was bad writing - gilding the "OMG RAMSEY IS SO TERRIBLE!!!" lily quite a bit.

[crazy canuck]

You should go back and re-watch the episode where the fate of Littlefinger is entirely in her power.

Yes in theory that was so but presumably she didn't reveal herself then for the same reason she didn't in the books.

By the time she is at the gates of Winterfell and Littlefinger does the big reveal she is out of viable options.

The problem is that they shot that scene in a way that gave the impression that she had a real choice to make.  In fact Littlefinger expressly gave her the choice not to go through with it.  It was not through any threat, express or implied, that convinced her.  He appealed to her to make a rational decision.  My argument is that the reason she made the choice doesn't make much sense in the context of what she knew was happening in the North, her relationship with Littlefinger and most importantly her character arc to that point in time.

I agree, except that the choice does make sense if you assume that she is at least starting down the path of being a player instead of a playee, which is what I think we all kind of assumed. Yeah, she is going into a very dangerous place, but she is doing it because she thinks it is her chance to exact vengeance, not because she doesn't have any better options and is just hoping for the best.

This was presented to her as a choice, and Littlefinger gave her the option (or at least seemed to give her the option) of walking away.

Now, it is a little unfair of us to complain NOW about her taking that option and saying it was foolish - why didn't we complain then?

Because we all thought this was Sansa's moment to truly start manipulating others, to Littlefinger the Bolton's.

And it may very well be that in the end - but the last two episodes, IMO, show her character taking a huge step back, and rather than controlling what is happening, she is back to reacting to what is happening to her, and doing so largely through hoping that others will protect or save her. Theon is her new Ser Dontos.

Fair point.

[Martinus]

Yeah I think if there is anything to complain, it's not that Sansa is behaving unrealistically or out of character or even that this somehow belies her "becoming a player" - but that the writers simply gave us a boring narrative with her so far.

[The Minsky Moment]

Can't be more boring than what Martin wrote  . . .