Game of Thrones begins....

[Admiral Yi]

I helped. 

You are a public-minded citizen.

[crazy canuck]

Do you guys think [spoiler]Sansa turning down Brienne's offer of aid[/spoiler] was sincere or was it a game on her part [spoiler]and she knew Brienne will follow her anyway[/spoiler].

My view is that Sansa has grown up a lot from the early days when she trustingly went to the Queen with her father's plan to leave the city (something that happened in the book but not in the show).  She now knows how manipulative Little Finger is and she is painfully aware he is the only powerful ally she has left.  She lied to the Lords of the Vale to protect Little Finger and keep her powerful ally in play.  There was no point in upsetting him by accepting Brienne into her service when he made it clear he didn't want Brienne around.


We still don't know whether Sansa is mature enough to know Little Finger didn't want Sansa to have an guardian independent of him who might interfere with his further plans.  If she is that mature then perhaps she knew she could have the best of both worlds - keep Little Finger happy while knowing that Brienne would follow in any event.  We also don't know what Little Finger's plans might be (his long play is really the cornerstone of the story) but it is fun to speculate about it.  Without reference to social media spoilers that is.

[grumbler]

Do you guys think [spoiler]Sansa turning down Brienne's offer of aid[/spoiler] was sincere or was it a game on her part [spoiler]and she knew Brienne will follow her anyway[/spoiler].

My view is that Sansa has grown up a lot from the early days when she trustingly went to the Queen with her father's plan to leave the city (something that happened in the book but not in the show).  She now knows how manipulative Little Finger is and she is painfully aware he is the only powerful ally she has left.  She lied to the Lords of the Vale to protect Little Finger and keep her powerful ally in play.  There was no point in upsetting him by accepting Brienne into her service when he made it clear he didn't want Brienne around.


We still don't know whether Sansa is mature enough to know Little Finger didn't want Sansa to have an guardian independent of him who might interfere with his further plans.  If she is that mature then perhaps she knew she could have the best of both worlds - keep Little Finger happy while knowing that Brienne would follow in any event.  We also don't know what Little Finger's plans might be (his long play is really the cornerstone of the story) but it is fun to speculate about it.  Without reference to social media spoilers that is.

The Sansa scene was either poorly written, or else Sansa is playing her cards very close to her vest.  She makes no attempt to find out anything about her family from Brienne, who clearly has had more recent contact with Kat than Sansa has, in spite of the fact that it would obviously be uppermost in her mind to do so.  When she dismisses Brienne without so much as a "have you heard anything about my brothers or sisters?" I believe that we are supposed to assume that she doesn't trust Littlefinger enough to ask.  Her lack of curiousity may, in fact, have been worrisome to Littlefinger since it was so obviously a pose (unless the scene was badly written, which I doubt very much).

There are a lot of interesting implications of the meeting between Sansa and Brienne.  I don't, however, think that Sansa is depending on Brienne to follow her, or even giving the possibility any serious consideration.  We expect it, as viewers, because we know Brienne and how stubbornly honorable she is.  Sansa has never met her before.

[Berkut]

I did have to roll my eyes at the Brienne/Arya/Sansa stuff in the show.

Brienne is out searching for them, and pretty much just stumbles into both of them by pure chance? Really?

[grumbler]

Varys:  what's his game?  He has told Tyrion that he wants an honorable leader on the throne of "our kingdom" of Westeros, but his original plan was to bring Viseys to the throne.  Viserys was everything Varys later tells Tyrion he wants to avoid.  Clearly, he is lying to Tyrion.

Also, does he shave because he is balding, or because his hair is too pale for him to go unrecognized as a Targaryen?  Could he background be a matter of fiction?  After all, he was made a member of the small council by Aerius II, not Robert Baratheon.  If he was a Targaryen bastard, he'd have "the blood" to be useful (or maybe just have bits snipped off to be useful) in blood magic.

[Grey Fox]

Spoilers!

[crazy canuck]

I did have to roll my eyes at the Brienne/Arya/Sansa stuff in the show.

Brienne is out searching for them, and pretty much just stumbles into both of them by pure chance? Really?

I agree that the Arya acceptance into the Temple was poorly written.  The show provided no explanation why one day she was turned away and then the next she was accepted.  In the book it took a lot time for her to be granted admission.

As for the chance meeting of Sansa and Brienne.  Those sorts of chance meetings run throughout the books and have major plot implications.  Think about the chance meeting of Lady Stark and Tyrion at the crossroads inn as an example. 

[Zanza]

Without the chance meetings, Brienne's role would be pretty senseless. If she was just stumbling on and on, never finding the Starks, what would be her point in the story arc?

[Berkut]

Without the chance meetings, Brienne's role would be pretty senseless. If she was just stumbling on and on, never finding the Starks, what would be her point in the story arc?

Of course, but it seemed kind of like lazy writing - surely they could have come up with some way that her meeting was a result of her actually trying to find her, rather than her wandering about, failing utterly, then Ooops! There she is! What a small Westeros!

[grumbler]

Spoilers!

The Fox who cried Wolf?

[Berkut]

I did have to roll my eyes at the Brienne/Arya/Sansa stuff in the show.

Brienne is out searching for them, and pretty much just stumbles into both of them by pure chance? Really?

I agree that the Arya acceptance into the Temple was poorly written.  The show provided no explanation why one day she was turned away and then the next she was accepted.  In the book it took a lot time for her to be granted admission.

You could see that they were at least trying to convey that to some extent...it just didn't really work well.

The election of Jon was rather disappointing as well, at least as compared to how it went down in the books. Probably not really realistic though, given the limitations of the medium...but in the books getting Jon elected was this crowning achievement of Samwell, and it was really cool (if a little predictable). The show he was just kind of spur of the moment nominated and elected.

[Berkut]

As for the chance meeting of Sansa and Brienne.  Those sorts of chance meetings run throughout the books and have major plot implications. 

When it happens the first time it is a pretty cool dramatic turn on fate and random chance.

When someone is actually LOOKING FOR SOMEONE and just happens to stumble into them...well, that is a little bit silly. But it is a minor nit.

There were quite a few random encounters in the show though, you are right...

The biggest though has to be Sam just so happening to coming south under the wall on the exact same night that Bran is going north. I still think the idea that Sam would find out that not just one but both of the younger Stark children are alive and agree to keep it a secret, even from Jon, is completely ludicrous.

[crazy canuck]

Without the chance meetings, Brienne's role would be pretty senseless. If she was just stumbling on and on, never finding the Starks, what would be her point in the story arc?

Of course, but it seemed kind of like lazy writing - surely they could have come up with some way that her meeting was a result of her actually trying to find her, rather than her wandering about, failing utterly, then Ooops! There she is! What a small Westeros!

Except the show made a point of telling us that Little Finger led everyone astray as to where he is actually going.  If Brienne had been able to track Sansa to the Vale she would now be looking in the wrong place.  A chance meeting was all that was left for a character like Brienne who lacks the kind of guile that would be required to track Little Finger.  Besides they did foreshadow the meeting in the first episode - when Little Finger and Sansa left the Vale they crossed Brienne's path.

[grumbler]

The election of Jon was rather disappointing as well, at least as compared to how it went down in the books. Probably not really realistic though, given the limitations of the medium...but in the books getting Jon elected was this crowning achievement of Samwell, and it was really cool (if a little predictable). The show he was just kind of spur of the moment nominated and elected.

I agree the election thing was a disappointment after the book.  I'd think that there were a lot of scenes that could have been skipped or shortened to make the time for Tarley to do his Machiavelli imitation; for instance, the whole scene in the library with Samwell, his girlfriend, and Stannis's daughter.

[crazy canuck]

The biggest though has to be Sam just so happening to coming south under the wall on the exact same night that Bran is going north. I still think the idea that Sam would find out that not just one but both of the younger Stark children are alive and agree to keep it a secret, even from Jon, is completely ludicrous.

iirc the Book did a much better job explaining why Sam kept the secret.

I should also add than in the books Sam keeps the secret, in the show he tells Jon iirc.