Game of Thrones begins....

[mongers]

iirc We are coming to the end of the fourth season.

So I've a way to go catching up.   

[grumbler]

It was pretty well done, I am just impatient to see [spoiler]Tywin get patricided[/spoiler]

Yeah, i was expecting that this episode.  The biggie moments are saved for the ninth episode, by and large. 

i agree with those who note that the show kinda fucked up the number of Crows present.  A lot of the people resisting the attack on the fort were not in black cloaks, though, so I'm not sure what they were supposed to be.  Servants, maybe?

The battle was good, but a lot of the sword fighting was still awkward to watch.  And Snow getting his face smashed into the anvil and then getting up with all of his teeth seemed a bit much.  Still, i won't complain - they were trying to make it exciting, and succeeded, so nits are just nits.

I liked the way they handled the battle in the tunnel.  Actually showing that fight would have put too much strain on the actors interfacing with a CGI giant, and this way worked perfectly.

[spoiler]I had hoped that Stannis would arrive at the end of this episode.  That would have been the perfect 'wow' moment for the ninth episode.[/spoiler]

[grumbler]

For all the fighting, to me, the best moments of the episode were when Aemon talked to Sam in the library.  Peter Vaughan had his acting tour de force right there, as far as I am concerned. 

[Admiral Yi]

I would definitely hit Gilly.

[Solmyr]

And Snow getting his face smashed into the anvil and then getting up with all of his teeth seemed a bit much.

That was funny, yeah.

[spoiler]And IIRC Stannis isn't due to arrive until Jon is trying to kill Mance, so presumably next episode, unless they push the entire thing to next season.[/spoiler]

[grumbler]

And Snow getting his face smashed into the anvil and then getting up with all of his teeth seemed a bit much.

That was funny, yeah.

[spoiler]And IIRC Stannis isn't due to arrive until Jon is trying to kill Mance, so presumably next episode, unless they push the entire thing to next season.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]The whole timeline of Jon going to see Mance has changed, so its hard to say how close they will stay regarding Stannis.  It would have been boss to have ended the episode with Stannis's charge, though. [/spoiler]

[Phillip V]

Where was Master Aemon during the battle?

[HVC]

Where was Master Aemon during the battle?

probably taking a nap.

[Eddie Teach]

I dunno, he's blind, not deaf, so might have trouble sleeping with all that racket.

[Admiral Yi]

combatjack

[HVC]

I dunno, he's blind, not deaf, so might have trouble sleeping with all that racket.

hes also a 100. Although I guess he could be having an epic duel with a coat rack

[Josquius]

My memory of the latter books is totally borked. I couldn't remember Jon going north to kill Mance at all but checking up he did do that.

Yes, there did seem to be a few too many watchmen...
I guess there were refugees from surrounding villages joining them, that was sort of shown on the episode and was there in the books to an extent iirc.

Nope, they were all Crows.  In editing they should have just cut the line about there only being 20 down below.  Or written it to be something like "there are too few to defend".   As it was there were more Crows than the less than 100 they were supposed to have defending.  But the battle scenes were well done and enjoyable to watch.  I give the episode an A.

The villagers would have been wearing Watch armour and using Watch weapons.
It is the only way to make the amount of people there make sense :p

[Viking]

One of my  big conspiracy theories is that Mance = Rhaegar. So I'll be looking out for any changes D&D make in the interaction between Mance and Jon.

Already he's leaving the sword behind. Thats a big departure already.


And [spoiler]Stannis won't show up until next season. Simply on the grounds that Dalla and Val haven't been cast.[/spoiler]

[Zanza]

Eh, why would Mance be Rhaegar Targaryen? That doesn't fit with anything we know about Mance or Rhaegar...

[Viking]

Rhaegar and Mance share the following attributes[spoiler]

Same age, same height, same body size, same interest in music, same interest in prophecy, same skill apparently unique skill set, same favourite colours and most people think they are dead. The main difference is hair color and eye color.

I am going to propose a narrative of how I think history unfolded showing how certain events in the book contribute to foreshadowing the obstacles to the R=M hypothesis, how these events tie together otherwise unrelated events in the books and how this weaves a considerable number of loose threads together to form a coherent whole.

The assumptions you need to make to have this narrative work are

1) That there is a prophecy which is know to the initiated.
2) That kinds of events can happen again.

Ok, the narrative is as follows.

Young Rhaegar, bookish and nerdy, reads up on his prophecy and finds something important. Personally I think this prophecy also explains Aerys' madness since it is quite possible that both were working to fulfil it at the time, leading (unwittingly) to Roberts Rebellion. Once he reads the prophecy he has a profound change of lifestyle, he decides to learn how to fight.

In apparent fulfilment of the prophecy he marries Elia of Dorne. Which would be the first marriage of a Targaryen in the line of succession to a non-Targaryen since Dorne was brought into the kingdom and before that since Aegon's Conquest. I think he did this in pursuit of the prophecy. He then corresponds with Maester Aemon at the wall thinking his son by Elia is the PWP. I think Aemon corrected his mis-understanding of the prophecy with books from his library.

Later at the tourney at Harrenhall Rhaegar fights with an unprecented ferocity and skill to become champion letting him bestow the title of queen of love and beauty on Lyanna, not his wife. Earlier in the tourney the Knight of the Laughing tree bests a few minor nobles and Rhaegars squire promises to uncover the secret identity. I think the squire uncovers the identity, tells Rhaegar who then realizes what the prophecies really mean. He then determines to win the tourney and woo Lyanna. Lyannas symbol of the blue flower which appears in the house of the undying where it breaks the wall is probably related to the prophecy.

Not being able to plausibly break the engagement Lyanna already had with Robert he kidnaps her. Meanwhile the mad king, in trying to fulfil his end of the prophecy seeks to revive dragons, by, if necessary burning all of kings landing with dragon eggs hoping to find a blood of the dragon in fleabottom or something. At this point Roberts Rebellion breaks out. This is a minor inconvenience for Rhaegar who is away at the Tower of Joy trying to fulfil a prophecy with Lyanna. This is why Aerys bungles the war and hires and fires Hands.

With Lyanna pregnant and the prophecy apparently being fulfilled, Rhaegar returns. He then departs to lead the army against the nuisance Robert telling Jamie that everything will be different, since now there is no need to burn the city to fulfil the prophecy. He leaves Jamie as hostage to Tywins loyalty, leave his 3 best white cloak friends at the TOJ with the PWP, takes the other 3 white cloaks to the Ruby ford where he is beaten by Robert.

Tyrion fights in a battle at almost the same location where he is knocked out, left for dead and still alive. I think the same thing happened to Rhaegar. Covered in mud his armour, now without the rubies left him looking like any other dead body. Only he was without his heraldry. The Hound allegedly floated down the river after his death where he was saved at the silent isle. I think this happened to Rhaegar too. He was badly injured and by the time he recovered he entered a new world with Robert on the throne, his family dead, Lyanna dead and apparently no hope of him fulfilling he prophecy. He then goes into hiding at the wall where his uncle aemon helps him hide his identity to keep him safe from Robert's wrath along with Jeor Mormont and Qorin Half Hand (and possibly others).

At this point he has a new, fake name, is hiding his identity behind a disguise, potentially a faceless man style diguise he might have learned about from his booklearning. He might also have travelled to Essos after leaving the Nights Watch. He then goes to fulfil the rest of the prophecy, or at least the bits he can contribute to the prophecy. Failing to find the horn of joramund (which sam finds at the fist of the first men), he tries to save the wildlings from the coming catastrophy by getting them across the wall. He does this because he fails to contact Mormont before the great ranging is destroyed at the fist. He then lets Jon keep his sword and protect his half brother possibly as a test of the prophecy.

An interesting consequence of this is that the assassination attempt on Bran may have been prophecy related. Brans paralyzation may be in the prophecies and given the importance of understanding prophecy burning the library might not just have been a diversion, it might have been an attempt to burn books with information on the prophecy, making the person who hired the assassin possibly an agent of the others or the evil god opposing Ryhllor.

Mance's trip to Winterfell during Roberts visit may have have many many more reasons. Including a visit to Lyannas Tomb which would have been unsealed for Roberts visit and a look at Jon Snow to confirm he was Lyannas son (by looking at his face) to reassure him that the prophecy was valid, possibly after hearing from Ben-Jen Stark that Jon looked like Lyanna.

Jon says in AFFC Ch.5 "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own". Knowing what we know about R+L=J this suddenly becomes relevant. Also, Mance takes on the name Able, an anagram of Bale, who famously stole the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and returned her with a son. Which, is amazing relevat if Jon is Lyannas son by Rhaegar and Rhaegar is Mance.

This all assumes that Rhaegar survived the battle like Tyrion, survived the river like The Hound,could change his appearance as Jaqen H'Gar and could have his death faked like Mance Rayder. That Martin's comment on how Rhaegar was cremated is misleading.[/spoiler]