Game of Thrones begins....

[Gups]

The POVs aren't written in the first person. The narrative voice comes through frequently.

[grumbler]

The POVs aren't written in the first person. The narrative voice comes through frequently.

Good point.  The problem is telling when Martin is seeing something as Martin and when he is seeing it as the character.

The point remains, though, that whether Tyrion Lannister is less attractive than Peter Dinklage or not shouldn't be a major concern of the casting department.  Diklage is "unattractive enough."  Ditto for the Melisandre and van Houton's "hotness."

Martin is writing in a descriptive style, at which he is good.  Some exaggeration is probably necessary to distinguish his characters.  In TV, that's not a problem; we can tell them at sight.

[Faeelin]

One could also argue that all the character descriptions are seen through POVs, so any hotness, ugliness, fatness, etc, might be exagerrated in the viewer's mind.

Not everything, plenty of descriptions are stated as a matter of fact, such as Tyrion's and Brienne's ugliness for instance, both through other people's eyes and through their own. Sure some things are going to be subjective, and more so when the POV character is one of the young kids, but others are reinforced constantly and by the characters themselves.

I actually wondered about Brienne. Sure, she wasn't smoking, but I got the impression a lot of the reason she was perceived as ugly was very Westerosi, and not reasons we'd find her ugly...

[The Larch]

One could also argue that all the character descriptions are seen through POVs, so any hotness, ugliness, fatness, etc, might be exagerrated in the viewer's mind.

Not everything, plenty of descriptions are stated as a matter of fact, such as Tyrion's and Brienne's ugliness for instance, both through other people's eyes and through their own. Sure some things are going to be subjective, and more so when the POV character is one of the young kids, but others are reinforced constantly and by the characters themselves.

I actually wondered about Brienne. Sure, she wasn't smoking, but I got the impression a lot of the reason she was perceived as ugly was very Westerosi, and not reasons we'd find her ugly...

A lot had to do with her being manly/not womanly and awkward, but she also had some features that were objectively not appealing. This is a description of her from the chapter where she makes her first appearance:

She has large, blue eyes, straw-colored hair, broad, coarse features, and a flat face. Her teeth are prominent and crooked, her mouth is too wide, her lips are swollen, her nose is battered and has been broken more than once, and her face is covered in freckles. She is tall and ungainly, thick for a woman.

[Josquius]

I don't recall any character descriptions that were not part of a POV, and so I don't know how many could be "stated as a matter of fact."  The primary impressions we have of Tyrion's or Brienne's ugliness comes from the characters themselves.  You would be correct to note that these could only be exaggerations, because other characters see them as unattractive.   Still, they are almost certainly mostly exaggerations.

I can't recall much being stated as outright fact but I'm pretty sure there were several occasions of different characters making similar observations. If three people say x is y then that can be pretty much taken as fact.


Brienne: Yeah, she was ugly. I suppose in a culture that values beefy manly women she might be looked at better but not liking that is hardly unique to Westeros.

[grumbler]

A lot had to do with her being manly/not womanly and awkward, but she also had some features that were objectively not appealing. This is a description of her from the chapter where she makes her first appearance:

She has large, blue eyes, straw-colored hair, broad, coarse features, and a flat face. Her teeth are prominent and crooked, her mouth is too wide, her lips are swollen, her nose is battered and has been broken more than once, and her face is covered in freckles. She is tall and ungainly, thick for a woman.

This isn't an objective description, though; "coarse" features are a value judgement, as is the mouth being "too wide," her being "ungainly," and how "thick" you have to be to be "thick for a woman."

Even the "prominence" of teeth is subjective, as is how "crooked" they have to be to pass the subjective threshold between crooked and straight.  The nose having been broken more than once is, I agree, objective.  That's about it, though.

In other words, Brienne could be quite attractive by our standards and still meet this description by Westeros standards.

[grumbler]

I can't recall much being stated as outright fact but I'm pretty sure there were several occasions of different characters making similar observations. If three people say x is y then that can be pretty much taken as fact.

I don't get the feeling that your standards for "fact" are even this high, but mine are much, much higher.  The term for people who make statements like this is "credulous."

[Josquius]

I can't recall much being stated as outright fact but I'm pretty sure there were several occasions of different characters making similar observations. If three people say x is y then that can be pretty much taken as fact.

I don't get the feeling that your standards for "fact" are even this high, but mine are much, much higher.  The term for people who make statements like this is "credulous."

So if the inner voice of a bunch of different people says that someone has a big nose its not likely that they do indeed have a big nose?

[grumbler]

So if the inner voice of a bunch of different people says that someone has a big nose its not likely that they do indeed have a big nose?

Nice strawman.  I didn't mention inner voices, big noses, or "not likely."

Three Freys said that Davos Seaforth was executed at White Harbor.  Did that make it true?

[Josquius]

So if the inner voice of a bunch of different people says that someone has a big nose its not likely that they do indeed have a big nose?

Nice strawman.  I didn't mention inner voices, big noses, or "not likely."

Three Freys said that Davos Seaforth was executed at White Harbor.  Did that make it true?

No idea. Probally not but no spoilers please, I'm only quarter of the way through Dance.

We're on about how someone looks here. Not any facts whatsoever. There was no strawman at all in my post, that was what is called an example- if several viewpoints in the books make the same observation of someones appearance then that is as good as fact.

[grumbler]

We're on about how someone looks here. Not any facts whatsoever. There was no strawman at all in my post, that was what is called an example- if several viewpoints in the books make the same observation of someones appearance then that is as good as fact.

If three POV characters note that a person is blonde, then we can accept it as given that the person is blonde.  If three say a person is "ugly" then all we know is that three people think a person is ugly, "ugly" being a subjective term.

That's the way subjective impressions work.  Multiple subjective impressions are not additive or corroborative.

"As good as fact" is a meaningless term.

[Viking]

So if the inner voice of a bunch of different people says that someone has a big nose its not likely that they do indeed have a big nose?

Nice strawman.  I didn't mention inner voices, big noses, or "not likely."

Three Freys said that Davos Seaforth was executed at White Harbor.  Did that make it true?

No idea. Probally not but no spoilers please, I'm only quarter of the way through Dance.

We're on about how someone looks here. Not any facts whatsoever. There was no strawman at all in my post, that was what is called an example- if several viewpoints in the books make the same observation of someones appearance then that is as good as fact.

Davos execution also happens in A Feast for Crows where Cersei talks about it. So, Three Freys, a Grand Maester and a Lannister say the Onion Kniggot was executed at White Harbour.

[Razgovory]

She has large, blue eyes, straw-colored hair, broad, coarse features, and a flat face. Her teeth are prominent and crooked, her mouth is too wide, her lips are swollen, her nose is battered and has been broken more than once, and her face is covered in freckles. She is tall and ungainly, thick for a woman.

Martin has thing for describing lips.  What the lips look like (swollen, wormy, etc), are always mentioned.  For some reason that seems odd to me.

[Queequeg]

Don't get me wrong, she's attractive.  Melisandre, as written though, is very, very attractive.  Internet level hott.

Watch The Black Book.  Spend two hours suppressing an erection.

[jimmy olsen]

I can't recall much being stated as outright fact but I'm pretty sure there were several occasions of different characters making similar observations. If three people say x is y then that can be pretty much taken as fact.

I don't get the feeling that your standards for "fact" are even this high, but mine are much, much higher.  The term for people who make statements like this is "credulous."

So if the inner voice of a bunch of different people says that someone has a big nose its not likely that they do indeed have a big nose?

Not necessarily, they could be from an ethnic group with small noses and the later could be from an ethnic group with average size noses.