Game of Thrones begins....

[Berkut]

Because no matter how much he likes Robb, there is no question that he is a Greyjoy. His swearing to Robb in that manner simply does not make any sense. And there is no question that Theon is not aware of his status as a hostage.

I think this is an example of where the writers could not stand to leave well enough alone - an example of where they decided their viewers were too stupid to appreciate the betrayal unless they made it REALLY REALLY REALLY clear for them.

Theon sees opportunities for the Greyjoys to improve their position by attacking the Lannisters while they are busy fighting the Starks and others.  Of course, his father and sister see an even more natural opportunity to expand at the expense of the Starks, but Theon is blind to this because of his friendship with Robb.

I think this is an example of you forgetting that Theon did, indeed, agree to throw the weight of the Greyjoys behind Robb.  He went home specifically to muster the Greyjoys against the Lannisterrs.  This is made clear in his discussions with his father.

You are correct, except for the part that I forgot what Theon was doing. I remember quite well.

He never swore himself to Robb though. Nor would it make sense for him to do so, even if he did (and he did) want to ally with the Starks against the Lannisters.

The only caveat to that is if he was thinking that the Geryjoys would actually be subject to the King in the North. Which

A) Seems unlikely he would agree to that without talking about it with his father, and
B) Not sure it even makes any "legal" sense. Can the heir to a house swear his loyalty to another liege? What does that even mean, in the context of their respective houses?

I am not disputing that Theon wanted to team up with Robb to kick some Lannister ass. He most certainly did. He betrayed Robb and the Starks, but it wasn't a betrayal of an oath to serve, just the more pedestrian betrayal of a friend who trusted you.

[grumbler]

Exactly - his loyalty to Robb is the loyalty of a friend. It makes no sense for him to swear his sword to Robb, as Robb is not his Lord. He may very well ally himself to Robb, fight with Robb, but he isn't going to swear to him, anymore than Ned would swear to Robert (before Robert became Kind of course).

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?

He identifies with Robb and his cause.  Why wouldn't he swear loyalty to his friend and pupil?  It's not like he was raised to understand his position as heir to the House Greyjoy, which he thinks diminished anyway.

[Slargos]

Exactly - his loyalty to Robb is the loyalty of a friend. It makes no sense for him to swear his sword to Robb, as Robb is not his Lord. He may very well ally himself to Robb, fight with Robb, but he isn't going to swear to him, anymore than Ned would swear to Robert (before Robert became Kind of course).

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?

He identifies with Robb and his cause.  Why wouldn't he swear loyalty to his friend and pupil?  It's not like he was raised to understand his position as heir to the House Greyjoy, which he thinks diminished anyway.

And if grumbler and I are in agreement, you can be certain there is some truth to the matter. 

[Sophie Scholl]

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?

Doesn't Edmure swear fealty and loyalty to Robb in the books?  Riverrun was one of the Seven Kingdoms as much as the Iron Islands I believe, correct?  At the least, the Tullys are one of the great houses.

[Berkut]

Exactly - his loyalty to Robb is the loyalty of a friend. It makes no sense for him to swear his sword to Robb, as Robb is not his Lord. He may very well ally himself to Robb, fight with Robb, but he isn't going to swear to him, anymore than Ned would swear to Robert (before Robert became Kind of course).

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?

He identifies with Robb and his cause.  Why wouldn't he swear loyalty to his friend and pupil?  It's not like he was raised to understand his position as heir to the House Greyjoy, which he thinks diminished anyway.

And if grumbler and I are in agreement, you can be certain there is some truth to the matter. 

I was just thinking something similar, only completely different.

[Habbaku]

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?

Doesn't Edmure swear fealty and loyalty to Robb in the books?  Riverrun was one of the Seven Kingdoms as much as the Iron Islands I believe, correct?  At the least, the Tullys are one of the great houses.

No, the Riverlands used to be part of the Iron Islands, but aren't a kingdom themselves.  They are, however, rather strong in their own right and might as well be the "eighth kingdom".

[grumbler]

You are correct, except for the part that I forgot what Theon was doing. I remember quite well.

He never swore himself to Robb though. Nor would it make sense for him to do so, even if he did (and he did) want to ally with the Starks against the Lannisters.

Where does it say he never swore an oath to Robb?  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  By swearing an oath to Robb, he gets his freedom (perhaps not in the book, but it certainly makes sense from the TV show perspective, where everything is simplified).  If he didn't swear, why would Robb release such a valuable hostage?

The only caveat to that is if he was thinking that the Geryjoys would actually be subject to the King in the North. Which

A) Seems unlikely he would agree to that without talking about it with his father, and
B) Not sure it even makes any "legal" sense. Can the heir to a house swear his loyalty to another liege? What does that even mean, in the context of their respective houses?

Of course the heads of houses can swear allegiance to kings.  The books are full of that.  Ned did that himself.

I am not disputing that Theon wanted to team up with Robb to kick some Lannister ass. He most certainly did. He betrayed Robb and the Starks, but it wasn't a betrayal of an oath to serve, just the more pedestrian betrayal of a friend who trusted you.

I am pretty sure that he and Robb allied themselves formally in some fashion in the book, else Robb wouldn't have released Theon to return to the Iron Isles.  Theon was a hostage to the good behavior of the Greyjoys, and Robb wouldn't have given that up save to gain something from it.  IIRC, the books do not detail the specifics of their agreement, but nothing I recall indicates that what happened in the series was so grievously wrong as you suppose.

Unless, of course, I am misremembering something, and the exact oath Robb extracted from Theon was discussed.

[Sophie Scholl]

Ah, that's right.  Do the Tullys count as a "Great House" though?  I figured they at least held that status, if not one of the Seven Kingdoms.

[Berkut]

He is the heir to House Greyjoy - how could the heir of a Great house swear to the King in the North anyway?

Doesn't Edmure swear fealty and loyalty to Robb in the books?  Riverrun was one of the Seven Kingdoms as much as the Iron Islands I believe, correct?  At the least, the Tullys are one of the great houses.

Exactly - and as such, Tully swore to be *under* the King in the North, as one of the subjects of the King. The two houses, Stark and Tully, at that point were in rebellion.

Greyjoy never agreed to join the King in the North, so how can Theon swear fealty to Robb? He does not have that authority. He certainly did not do so in the book, at least not that I remember.

Indeed, Robb sends him home to seek an alliance with Greyjoy, not to ask or demand that Greyjoy submit to him, or to tell him that he is their new king.

[Habbaku]

Ah, that's right.  Do the Tullys count as a "Great House" though?  I figured they at least held that status, if not one of the Seven Kingdoms.

I don't know/recall if that qualifies them or not.  If not in name,  then they are certainly de facto one of the greats, since they're head of the Riverlands.

[merithyn]

I assumed that Theon was offering fealty for himself, not for his house. Did I miss something when he gave his oath and he claimed it for the entire house?

[The Minsky Moment]

Indeed, Robb sends him home to seek an alliance with Greyjoy, not to ask or demand that Greyjoy submit to him, or to tell him that he is their new king.

Not only that, he proposes to recognize Balon Greyjoy as a fellow monarch, co-equal in status. 

[Berkut]

You are correct, except for the part that I forgot what Theon was doing. I remember quite well.

He never swore himself to Robb though. Nor would it make sense for him to do so, even if he did (and he did) want to ally with the Starks against the Lannisters.

Where does it say he never swore an oath to Robb?  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  By swearing an oath to Robb, he gets his freedom (perhaps not in the book, but it certainly makes sense from the TV show perspective, where everything is simplified).  If he didn't swear, why would Robb release such a valuable hostage?

1. Because Robb trusts him
2. Because Robb assumes the best about others
3. Because Robb is kind of an idiot at times.

True, there is nothing in the book that says Theon did NOT swear an oath to Robb, but I think there is good reason for that - because such an oath would not make much sense.

The only caveat to that is if he was thinking that the Geryjoys would actually be subject to the King in the North. Which

A) Seems unlikely he would agree to that without talking about it with his father, and
B) Not sure it even makes any "legal" sense. Can the heir to a house swear his loyalty to another liege? What does that even mean, in the context of their respective houses?

Of course the heads of houses can swear allegiance to kings.  The books are full of that.  Ned did that himself.

But Theon is not the head of a house. That is my point - he is just the heir. He has no legal authority (I don't thin) to bind Greyjoy under the King in the North.

IIRC, his proposal was actually to allow Balon to crown himself King, and part of the reason Theon was so ridiculed was the implication that the Starks would "give" a kingship to Balon, rather than him seizing it himself.

I am not disputing that Theon wanted to team up with Robb to kick some Lannister ass. He most certainly did. He betrayed Robb and the Starks, but it wasn't a betrayal of an oath to serve, just the more pedestrian betrayal of a friend who trusted you.

I am pretty sure that he and Robb allied themselves formally in some fashion in the book, else Robb wouldn't have released Theon to return to the Iron Isles.

Robb sent him off with a formal proposal for alliance between the Starks and Greyjoys. I am sure Theon assured him that it would be honored. Theon had no idea he would be pushed aside as he was when he got home, and Robb simply accepted his word that he would be able to make the agreement stick. Neither of them understood Balon one bit.

I was surprised, even reading the books, that some of Robbs advisers did not object to the proposal in fact - presumably these men would know Balon Greyjoy - , but perhaps they were not even consulted - I think the proposal was something of a secret.

  Theon was a hostage to the good behavior of the Greyjoys, and Robb wouldn't have given that up save to gain something from it.  IIRC, the books do not detail the specifics of their agreement, but nothing I recall indicates that what happened in the series was so grievously wrong as you suppose.

I would not call it grievously wrong, just kind of patronizing to the viewers. Theon's betrayal is powerful enough without him swearing to Robb - in fact, it is a much more personal betrayal, than strictly a political betrayal.

Unless, of course, I am misremembering something, and the exact oath Robb extracted from Theon was discussed.

I don't think it was - the context, IIRC, of the agreement was entirely presented by Theon to Balon, never revealed in the books as a discussion between Robb and Theon.

[The Minsky Moment]

I assumed that Theon was offering fealty for himself, not for his house. Did I miss something when he gave his oath and he claimed it for the entire house?

Theon is the heir to the house though.  Or at least Robb and Theon both think so.

[Berkut]

I assumed that Theon was offering fealty for himself, not for his house. Did I miss something when he gave his oath and he claimed it for the entire house?

Yes, I don't think you could take it any other way.

But that makes Theon even more silly. How can the heir to a kingdom personally swear fealty to another? Is he renouncing his own claim as heir to the Iron Isles (whether that be as a Lord or as a King)? Doesn't seem likely. If not, what does it mean for the heir to a house to swear fealty to another, when his house has no such fealty?

Like I said, I think it is just the writers making sure us idiot viewers don't miss the fact that Theon is a dirty lying little shit.