Game of Thrones begins....

[Martinus]

Well, considering Berkut's wife thought the scene was happening in their living room (to be honest, while I probably wouldn't want some guy skinning a deer in my living room, I would probably find it more objectionable if people were fingering whores, beheading deserters, pouring boiling gold over someone's head or tearing someone's tongues out with their bare hands in my living room), maybe Berkut has some weird tv set. 

[Slargos]

Actually, I really like that idea - some poor peasant (or minor lord) thinking to go to the great Lord to beg protection or justice from the madman Mountain (peasant has no clue that Tywin sent him to begin with, of course) and how Tywin handles it.

Although this would've probably worked just as well to get the point through. Difference of course being that the scene we got was able to both convey the message about the character Tywin, as well as propel the story through the dialogue. This is why I really liked that scene. It worked on so many levels.

[Martinus]

Actually, I really like that idea - some poor peasant (or minor lord) thinking to go to the great Lord to beg protection or justice from the madman Mountain (peasant has no clue that Tywin sent him to begin with, of course) and how Tywin handles it.

Although this would've probably worked just as well to get the point through. Difference of course being that the scene we got was able to both convey the message about the character Tywin, as well as propel the story through the dialogue. This is why I really liked that scene. It worked on so many levels.

Precisely. Talking to a peasant would mean he is unable to talk to Jaime at the same time.

[The Minsky Moment]

Except that Tywin *doesn't* like to get his hands dirty.  He uses the Cleganes to do his murdering, his pen and quill to get others to eliminate rivals, he sends Tyrion to King's Landing to do the necessary and unpopular things and clear the way for himself to take over as Hand once the city is saved.

[Martinus]

Incidentally, I would have to rewatch the scene to see if there is any hint to that, but why are people assuming Tywin is skinning a deer "in his tent"? I suppose he may have more than one tent...

[Martinus]

Except that Tywin *doesn't* like to get his hands dirty.  He uses the Cleganes to do his murdering, his pen and quill to get others to eliminate rivals, he sends Tyrion to King's Landing to do the necessary and unpopular things and clear the way for himself to take over as Hand once the city is saved.

That's the best point I have heard so far.

[Slargos]

Well, considering Berkut's wife thought the scene was happening in their living room (to be honest, while I probably wouldn't want some guy skinning a deer in my living room, I would probably find it more objectionable if people were fingering whores, beheading deserters, pouring boiling gold over someone's head or tearing someone's tongues out with their bare hands in my living room), maybe Berkut has some weird tv set. 

Throughout this entire back and forth, my suspicion was that this was based on "OMG ICKY!" rather than "objection! relevance!" and it was certainly reinforced by that line. 

They are Americans. It's really hard to understand what will get them going.

Children getting their heads bashed in by mutant robots and/or their parents in massive orgies of blood and guts - PG13.

A 15 year old girl kissing her 16 year old boyfriend on the cheek - R-rated.

[Berkut]

Since you seem to have missed it last time I explained this to you, I'll mention it again:

It's not about the act being bad or good, it's about the feeling a lot of people are going to get from the scene. If this were aired for a 1910 audience, they'd probably have to find something else since the act of skinning an animal would be far more natural for the audience than today. Add to this the subject of what he's talking about, and the complete lack of emotion other than determined boredom he's displaying, and the scene works perfectly.

Ahhh, so the key is that audiences today are too stupid to realize that skinning a deer is a completely pedestrian act in medieval times, so showing it is going to gross them out, therefore if Tywin is skinning a deer he must be a bad guy.

I guess by that same reasoning, Daenys is a bad guy as well, since she was shown doing something considerably MORE gross - eating the heart of a animal. So she must be a "bad guy" as well.

Of course, absent seeing Tywin engaged in some completely routine butchering work, there is no way the audience could have known he was a "bad guy". I am still not sure how we figured that out with Jaime and Cersei, since they haven't been able to skin anything at all!

But I suspect that no matter how many different ways I go about explaining the conclusion both I and Martinus seem to have drawn from this scene, you simply won't get it.

On the contrary, I get it perfectly. You are slapping layers of lipstick on that pig, and just cannot understand why people keep insisting that there is a pig - after all, look at that lovely shade of pink! Can't possibly be a pig!

And frankly, that's fine. This is not science, this is art and despite what Minsky would claim there is no one "true" appreciation of it.

Even if you're way off base.

True enough. If you decide ahead of time that you will find some way to claim that it something is aesthetically pleasing, then in fact you can always manage a means to justify it, even if it makes no sense in any kind of subjective context.

Skinning a deer is not weird. It is not gross. It doesn't convey any message about the person doing it in this context beyond "Hey, that guy doesn't have anything better to do with his time than completely pedestrian chores". I know what the writers were TRYING  to get across, it just simply doesn't work.

[Berkut]

Except that Tywin *doesn't* like to get his hands dirty.  He uses the Cleganes to do his murdering, his pen and quill to get others to eliminate rivals, he sends Tyrion to King's Landing to do the necessary and unpopular things and clear the way for himself to take over as Hand once the city is saved.

Shush, the scene is akin to something from the Godfather in its epicness. Quit trolling.

[Berkut]

Well, considering Berkut's wife thought the scene was happening in their living room (to be honest, while I probably wouldn't want some guy skinning a deer in my living room, I would probably find it more objectionable if people were fingering whores, beheading deserters, pouring boiling gold over someone's head or tearing someone's tongues out with their bare hands in my living room), maybe Berkut has some weird tv set. 

Throughout this entire back and forth, my suspicion was that this was based on "OMG ICKY!" rather than "objection! relevance!" and it was certainly reinforced by that line. 

Uhhh, yeah, because clearly I cannot stand this show due to the "icky" of it. Why, watching Tywin butcher a deer (which, btw, YOU and Marty have claimed is "icky", not me - I think it is completely boring) is not nearly as gross as any number of other scenes.

They are Americans. It's really hard to understand what will get them going.

Ahhh, the Swede and the Pole allying to slander Americans. Stunning. You and Marty certainly have the pulse of America.

Children getting their heads bashed in by mutant robots and/or their parents in massive orgies of blood and guts - PG13.

A 15 year old girl kissing her 16 year old boyfriend on the cheek - R-rated.

[Slargos]

e

Since you seem to have missed it last time I explained this to you, I'll mention it again:

It's not about the act being bad or good, it's about the feeling a lot of people are going to get from the scene. If this were aired for a 1910 audience, they'd probably have to find something else since the act of skinning an animal would be far more natural for the audience than today. Add to this the subject of what he's talking about, and the complete lack of emotion other than determined boredom he's displaying, and the scene works perfectly.

Ahhh, so the key is that audiences today are too stupid to realize that skinning a deer is a completely pedestrian act in medieval times, so showing it is going to gross them out, therefore if Tywin is skinning a deer he must be a bad guy.

I guess by that same reasoning, Daenys is a bad guy as well, since she was shown doing something considerably MORE gross - eating the heart of a animal. So she must be a "bad guy" as well.

Of course, absent seeing Tywin engaged in some completely routine butchering work, there is no way the audience could have known he was a "bad guy". I am still not sure how we figured that out with Jaime and Cersei, since they haven't been able to skin anything at all!

But I suspect that no matter how many different ways I go about explaining the conclusion both I and Martinus seem to have drawn from this scene, you simply won't get it.

On the contrary, I get it perfectly. You are slapping layers of lipstick on that pig, and just cannot understand why people keep insisting that there is a pig - after all, look at that lovely shade of pink! Can't possibly be a pig!

And frankly, that's fine. This is not science, this is art and despite what Minsky would claim there is no one "true" appreciation of it.

Even if you're way off base.

True enough. If you decide ahead of time that you will find some way to claim that it something is aesthetically pleasing, then in fact you can always manage a means to justify it, even if it makes no sense in any kind of subjective context.

Skinning a deer is not weird. It is not gross. It doesn't convey any message about the person doing it in this context beyond "Hey, that guy doesn't have anything better to do with his time than completely pedestrian chores". I know what the writers were TRYING  to get across, it just simply doesn't work.

You still don't get it.

I think it works. Daeny scene notwithstanding. The entire tone of her scene is so completely different they're not even comparable.

I understand that you don't think it works. You've made that very clear.

[Slargos]

Well, considering Berkut's wife thought the scene was happening in their living room (to be honest, while I probably wouldn't want some guy skinning a deer in my living room, I would probably find it more objectionable if people were fingering whores, beheading deserters, pouring boiling gold over someone's head or tearing someone's tongues out with their bare hands in my living room), maybe Berkut has some weird tv set. 

Throughout this entire back and forth, my suspicion was that this was based on "OMG ICKY!" rather than "objection! relevance!" and it was certainly reinforced by that line. 

Uhhh, yeah, because clearly I cannot stand this show due to the "icky" of it. Why, watching Tywin butcher a deer (which, btw, YOU and Marty have claimed is "icky", not me - I think it is completely boring) is not nearly as gross as any number of other scenes.

They are Americans. It's really hard to understand what will get them going.

Ahhh, the Swede and the Pole allying to slander Americans. Stunning. You and Marty certainly have the pulse of America.

Children getting their heads bashed in by mutant robots and/or their parents in massive orgies of blood and guts - PG13.

A 15 year old girl kissing her 16 year old boyfriend on the cheek - R-rated.

I didn't say that was the case (how would I know that), I said that was my initial suspicion.

You really don't think.

[The Minsky Moment]

So here's my thought on the great venison debate.

The problem with Tywin for TV is that he is kind of a cipher as a character.  His viewpoint is never presented and he mostly appears to us through the eyes of his sons, both of whom have "issues" with him.  There is some backstory given about him, not all of which is entirely consistent -- at one point IIRC it is said that he was "hard" from the beginning b/c of the weakness of his father, at another point that he used to be different but changed when his wife died.  Most of his impact on the story involves consequences to actions he takes behind the scenes.  He is potrayed as cold, disciplined, somewhat taciturn -- kind of like Ned, but unlike Ned, we never get any real view of his inner life and motivations. 

I think the teleplay people saw him as a problem in terms of how to present the character to viewers, and the Deerslayer meets the Kingslayer scene was their awkward effort at a solution.

[Martinus]

So here's my thought on the great venison debate.

The problem with Tywin for TV is that he is kind of a cipher as a character.  His viewpoint is never presented and he mostly appears to us through the eyes of his sons, both of whom have "issues" with him.  There is some backstory given about him, not all of which is entirely consistent -- at one point IIRC it is said that he was "hard" from the beginning b/c of the weakness of his father, at another point that he used to be different but changed when his wife died.  Most of his impact on the story involves consequences to actions he takes behind the scenes.  He is potrayed as cold, disciplined, somewhat taciturn -- kind of like Ned, but unlike Ned, we never get any real view of his inner life and motivations. 

I think the teleplay people saw him as a problem in terms of how to present the character to viewers, and the Deerslayer meets the Kingslayer scene was their awkward effort at a solution.

Yeah, I think this is a fair point. Also, for some reason (which, in light of your explanation, is not that entirely clear), there is this overwhelming feeling in the fandom that Tywin is a real "badass". I think the scene was meant to convey it.

[Slargos]

So here's my thought on the great venison debate.

The problem with Tywin for TV is that he is kind of a cipher as a character.  His viewpoint is never presented and he mostly appears to us through the eyes of his sons, both of whom have "issues" with him.  There is some backstory given about him, not all of which is entirely consistent -- at one point IIRC it is said that he was "hard" from the beginning b/c of the weakness of his father, at another point that he used to be different but changed when his wife died.  Most of his impact on the story involves consequences to actions he takes behind the scenes.  He is potrayed as cold, disciplined, somewhat taciturn -- kind of like Ned, but unlike Ned, we never get any real view of his inner life and motivations. 

I think the teleplay people saw him as a problem in terms of how to present the character to viewers, and the Deerslayer meets the Kingslayer scene was their awkward effort at a solution.

So you're agreeing with me. This calls, I think, for some kind of celebration.