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Game of Thrones begins....

Started by Josquius, April 04, 2011, 03:39:14 AM

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Valmy

#735
May 09, 2011, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:32:57 PM
A case can be made that Littlefinger is tricking Ned and Catelyn to their dooms.

Hehe more than a case.  That is precisely what he intended to do and what he did.  But he was prepared to go Stark if the Starks somehow won.  He just wanted chaos and he knew he would win either way.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Viking

#736
May 09, 2011, 02:44:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:32:57 PM
A case can be made that Littlefinger is tricking Ned and Catelyn to their dooms.

Hehe more than a case.  That is precisely what he intended to do and what he did.  But he was prepared to go Stark if the Starks somehow won.  He just wanted chaos and he knew he would win either way.

I don't think that littlefinger's plans are as lowly as that might seem to suggest.. his move from Finger -> Lysa Tulley -> Jon Arryn -> Master of Coin -> Small Council -> Lord of Harrenhall -> Lord Protector of the Vale -> Husband of the heir to Winterfell Sansa Stark seems to suggest that his revenge on Brandon Stark for losing Catelyn Stark to him is to take from Ned Stark everything that he loves.

But, I worry that I give littlefinger too much credit. 
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

grumbler

#737
May 09, 2011, 02:48:15 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:32:57 PM
Littlefinger's story about the knife is obviously untrue. Provably untrue to boot. Tyrions defense that he never bets against his brother is easy to prove wrong if it is wrong. Tyrion gets convinced that Joffrey sent the assassin since he recognized the knife. Littlefinger is trying to frame Tyrion in the eyes of Ned and Catelyn. The next thing she does is to move back north, taking the rout suggested by Littlefinger and the next thing Ned does is chase down the Jon Arryn's squire and Roberts bastard Gendry with Littlefinger's help. He points the on the path to ruin both of them. When littlefinger later tells Sansa how he wooed the Martell's and how he arranged for the Queen of Thorns to want to murder Joffrey (Margery presumably had the antedote to the poison) he explains exactly how he gets people to do what he wants thinking that they did it on their own initiative. I took that to refer to Catelyn's journey back to Winterfell and Ned's journey to discovering the incest.

A case can be made that Littlefinger is tricking Ned and Catelyn to their dooms.
I agree 100%.  Littlefinger wants things to fall apart because he is an "outsider" who sees anarchy as a path to power.  Neither Ned nor Catelyn can imagine that someone in his position could want a war to break out, so they believe him when he tells them stories that seem to enable them to prevent a war.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Valmy

#738
May 09, 2011, 02:52:14 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:44:53 PM
Husband of the heir to Winterfell Sansa Stark

I thought he was scheming to wed Sansa to Harry the Heir?  Hey it would not be surprising if he was lying and did want to marry Sansa I was just not aware it said this anywhere.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Josquius

#739
May 09, 2011, 02:53:24 PM
He is certainly scheming and wanting to marry her to Harry.
What comes after that though...he certainly wants her in some way. Whether he waits for her to have a kid then offs Harry and marries her or just takes her as his mistress is anyone's guess.
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Viking

#740
May 09, 2011, 02:57:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 09, 2011, 02:52:14 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 02:44:53 PM
Husband of the heir to Winterfell Sansa Stark

I thought he was scheming to wed Sansa to Harry the Heir?  Hey it would not be surprising if he was lying and did want to marry Sansa I was just not aware it said this anywhere.

That is what he says. He has very specifically said that he only ever loved Catelyn and that Sansa looks just like her mother.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Sophie Scholl

#741
May 09, 2011, 03:04:45 PM
I agree with Berkut's last post in regards to what happened.  Also, he's got the timeline correct for clarification. 

I also agree that Ned is more of the typical feudal style lord as opposed to the more Italian Renaissance style ruling occurring in the south.  They make mention of being the Lord of the North being far more tied to shows of bravery, honor, and personal interaction amongst the lords.  There's a bit about Ned's policies as lord, and also when Robb takes over and rallies the North for the march, it goes further into how things are run up there.  To be a success in the North, you would be terrible in the South and vice versa.  Throw in that Ned wasn't initially groomed for leadership and lordship till after the death of his older brother and father, and you have someone who is much more steeped in military interaction and stories of honor and bravery than schooled in the arts of Machiavellian diplomacy and intrigue.

Ned reminds me a lot of Richard III as presented in favorable texts.  He is the "brother" of the man he helped set upon the throne who was once a giant of a man who was a physical specimen on the battlefield and imposing as a king.  Said king then was involved in a marriage that allowed her family to come in and start taking over the running of affairs while the king went to shit due to debauchery.  Ned/Richard take control of the far north and run affairs remarkably well in lieu of the king.  The king then passes away and Ned/Richard are both appointed as protectors of the realm to young kings with controlling mothers and powerful families backing them.  The split comes in how they deal with the succession issues that arise.  There's more to it than that, but that's the core of it.
"Everything that brought you here -- all the things that made you a prisoner of past sins -- they are gone. Forever and for good. So let the past go... and live."

"Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did."

The Brain

#742
May 09, 2011, 03:12:49 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 09, 2011, 03:04:45 PM
I agree with Berkut's last post in regards to what happened.  Also, he's got the timeline correct for clarification. 

I also agree that Ned is more of the typical feudal style lord as opposed to the more Italian Renaissance style ruling occurring in the south.  They make mention of being the Lord of the North being far more tied to shows of bravery, honor, and personal interaction amongst the lords.  There's a bit about Ned's policies as lord, and also when Robb takes over and rallies the North for the march, it goes further into how things are run up there.  To be a success in the North, you would be terrible in the South and vice versa.  Throw in that Ned wasn't initially groomed for leadership and lordship till after the death of his older brother and father, and you have someone who is much more steeped in military interaction and stories of honor and bravery than schooled in the arts of Machiavellian diplomacy and intrigue.

Ned reminds me a lot of Richard III as presented in favorable texts.  He is the "brother" of the man he helped set upon the throne who was once a giant of a man who was a physical specimen on the battlefield and imposing as a king.  Said king then was involved in a marriage that allowed her family to come in and start taking over the running of affairs while the king went to shit due to debauchery.  Ned/Richard take control of the far north and run affairs remarkably well in lieu of the king.  The king then passes away and Ned/Richard are both appointed as protectors of the realm to young kings with controlling mothers and powerful families backing them.  The split comes in how they deal with the succession issues that arise.  There's more to it than that, but that's the core of it.

You think Ned is a monster?
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Martinus

#743
May 09, 2011, 03:19:11 PM
Actually, I thought Tyrion is a Richard-III-esque character when he becomes the Hand of Joffrey. A misshaped cripple vilified for his evil (even though it is not true).

Sophie Scholl

#744
May 09, 2011, 03:22:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 03:19:11 PM
Actually, I thought Tyrion is a Richard-III-esque character when he becomes the Hand of Joffrey. A misshaped cripple vilified for his evil (even though it is not true).
Haven't gotten that far yet.  I'm only just finishing the first book.
"Everything that brought you here -- all the things that made you a prisoner of past sins -- they are gone. Forever and for good. So let the past go... and live."

"Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did."

Viking

#745
May 09, 2011, 03:22:36 PM
I have gotten the impression that Sancha of Aragon and Gioffre Borgia might be the inspiration and/or dummy lure for Sansa and Joffrey... at least the names...
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Viking

#746
May 09, 2011, 03:23:03 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 09, 2011, 03:22:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 03:19:11 PM
Actually, I thought Tyrion is a Richard-III-esque character when he becomes the Hand of Joffrey. A misshaped cripple vilified for his evil (even though it is not true).
Haven't gotten that far yet.  I'm only just finishing the first book.

The is a fully spoilered zone, sorry.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Martinus

#747
May 09, 2011, 03:24:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 03:22:36 PM
I have gotten the impression that Sancha of Aragon and Gioffre Borgia might be the inspiration and/or dummy lure for Sansa and Joffrey... at least the names...

Jaime is a Spanish/Aragonese name too. I think Lannisters have names from the region - but the comparisons end there I think.

The Brain

#748
May 09, 2011, 03:25:57 PM
Thank God.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Viking

#749
May 09, 2011, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 09, 2011, 03:24:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 09, 2011, 03:22:36 PM
I have gotten the impression that Sancha of Aragon and Gioffre Borgia might be the inspiration and/or dummy lure for Sansa and Joffrey... at least the names...

Jaime is a Spanish/Aragonese name too. I think Lannisters have names from the region - but the comparisons end there I think.

Cersei Lannister = Cesare Borgia?
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.
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