Game of Thrones begins....

[Martinus]

I don't think Ned is that well-traveled, and he overthrew a dynasty in the company of like-minded men, and then went home.

Not sure that is accurate.  Ned fought and succeeded in the civil war which itself had shifting loyalties.  The Books portray him as one of the leading figures in the rebellion.  Not some single minded country rube that simply fought and went home.  He succeeded in putting Robert on the throne.  The books make it pretty clear that if it had not been for Stark Robert may not have gained the throne.  The first inkling he gets that something has gone wrong is when he learns Robert is coming north to ask him to be the King's hand.   His background is much more complex and not consistent with the naive character he turns out to be.

I do not know the details about the Ned's rebellion, but wasn't that pretty much:

1. Ned lives up North.
2. Targaeryns kill Ned's father and brother, kidnap and "rape" his sister.
3. Ned goes South and kills Targaeryns.
4. Ned goes back North.

[Eddie Teach]

Not just in the first book.  Robb's decision to take a different bride is stupid without any need of hindsight.  The reader's reaction to it is WTF!

Love makes people do stupid things.

[Valmy]

Love makes people do stupid things.

Especially teenagers.  That is why Arya is never going to go through puberty.

[Viking]

With this Ned bashing I think I have to stand up for the guy. Basically NED has won, he has discovered the truth of Jamie and Cersie, he has the proof (in Roberts bastards). There are two plots to take him out, one of which succeeds. Should both fail he is guaranteed to succeed, Robert trusts him and hates his wife.

A) Tywins plot to remove him by tempting him out of Kings Landing and ambushing him with the force eventually led by Beric Dondarrion. Jamie screwed this plot up by injuring Ned in revenge for Catelyn taking Tyrion captive.

B) Cerseis plot to kill him by helping Robert die hunting and then have Joffrey lop his head off.


This all leads me to wonder if Tywin actually knew that Joffrey was a child of incest, or if the fact that crazy Lysa Arryn had Tyrion was enough to start a war. As far as I can see Tywin is either trying to kill Ned by getting him away from Kings Landing and having Gregor Clegane kill him or he is starting the war which is bound to follow the upcoming deaths of Ned and Robert early.

We have POV from Jamie and Tyrion which clears both of them of everything except chucking bran out the window and comitting incest. We have to guess Tywin and Cerseis motivations though.

[Eddie Teach]

I thought they had Cersei POV chapters in the last book?

[Viking]

I do not know the details about the Ned's rebellion, but wasn't that pretty much:

1. Ned lives up North.
2. Targaeryns kill Ned's father and brother, kidnap and "rape" his sister.
3. Ned goes South and kills Targaeryns.
4. Ned goes back North.

1. Ned is second son of Stark living in the North.
2. Rhaegar is bookish lad that reads a book and suddenly decides to become a warrior.
3. Great tourney of Harrenhall with the thing with Lyanna Stark and Howland Reed and the thing with Lyanna Stark and Prince Rhaegar.
4. Rhaegar kidnapps Lyanna Stark
5. Older brother of Ned, Brandon Stark, marches down to Kings Landing with three men and demands to fight Prince Rhaegar and free Lyanna.
6. Mad king Aerys arrest Brandon Stark and orders Rickard Stark to come down to Kings Landing to speak for his son.
7. Mad King Aerys holds "trial" and conducts rather theatrical executions.
8. Mad King Aerys demands Jon Arryn release Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon to be executed, Jon Arryn refuses and starts rebellion.
9. Jon and Ned marry Lysa and Catelyn to cement Tully Alliance.
10. Robert and Ned beat Rhaegar at the Trident.
11. Ned hurries to kings Landing to find Lannisters have betrayed Targaryens and switched sides.
12. Tower of Joy incident with Ned, Howland Reed, Arthur Dayne and Neds promise to Lyanna.
13. Ned in Dorn to give the arthur's sword back and says something to asharya dayne to cause her to commit sucide

It's much more complicated than that and it shows that ned does take part in the great tourneys and is fostered by the grand wise old man jon arryn as well as (presumably) getting dornish wench asharya dayne to fall in love with him. Neds great failing is to not see the options open to others in performing acts he considers abominable. He doesn't consider murder and bribery options for himself, so he doesn't see the possiblities in murder and bribery open to others.

[Viking]

I thought they had Cersei POV chapters in the last book?

I haven't gotten that far in my re-reading...

[Solmyr]

B) Cerseis plot to kill him by helping Robert die hunting and then have Joffrey lop his head off.

Except the head lopping was Joffrey's own improvisation and Cersei planned only to send Ned to the Wall.

Also should remember that Ned could have increased his chances considerably by allying with Renly and/or Littlefinger when they made their offers to him.

[grumbler]

Not sure that is accurate.  Ned fought and succeeded in the civil war which itself had shifting loyalties. 

Not sure that is accurate.  Except for the Lannister strike for the throne at the end, the war seemed pretty straightforward.

The Books portray him as one of the leading figures in the rebellion.  Not some single minded country rube that simply fought and went home.  He succeeded in putting Robert on the throne.  The books make it pretty clear that if it had not been for Stark Robert may not have gained the throne.

Yes, he was a leading figure in the rebellion, when things were straightforward and the enemy clear.  That is what ned was good at, and that is what Robert remembered him for.

The first inkling he gets that something has gone wrong is when he learns Robert is coming north to ask him to be the King's hand.   His background is much more complex and not consistent with the naive character he turns out to be.

The fact that he doesn't know how rotten things have gotten is just more evidence that the book is presenting him as a naive character all along.

[Viking]

B) Cerseis plot to kill him by helping Robert die hunting and then have Joffrey lop his head off.

Except the head lopping was Joffrey's own improvisation and Cersei planned only to send Ned to the Wall.

Also should remember that Ned could have increased his chances considerably by allying with Renly and/or Littlefinger when they made their offers to him.

You are correct, my comment is exactly 8 words too long. But the deal for Ned in Black is made by Tyrion to effectively end the war. Cerseis plan almost certainly did not included Robb calling his banners and marching south.

[Berkut]

Unless I am not remembering correctly, the basic sequence of events is:

1. Catelyn takes Tyrion
2. In response, the Kingslayer attacks Ned in Kings Landing.
3. Kingslayer flees

And then thinks just go to shit.

Prior to Catelyn taking Tyrion, nothing had really happened that could not be resolved wihtout bloodshed, at least in theory. Her taking Tyrion was the first overtly hostile act, and based on some really stupid reasons.

I mean, the story from Littlefinger is that he lost the dagger to Tyrion. Even if you accept that at face value, why would you automatically assume that Tyrion was then responsible with such surety that you are willing to take him hostage? If the dagger can go from Littlefinger to Tyrion, surely it can go from Tyrion to someone else.

And taking Tyrion hostage is a huge decision. It has ramifications that go far beyond the issue of justice, and Catelyn knew that - she was no country bumpkin. I think she was just faced with a situation she had no expectation of (running into Tyrion in the inn) and reacted.

[Solmyr]

And taking Tyrion hostage is a huge decision. It has ramifications that go far beyond the issue of justice, and Catelyn knew that - she was no country bumpkin. I think she was just faced with a situation she had no expectation of (running into Tyrion in the inn) and reacted.

That's pretty much it - Catelyn was content to go on her way but she was recognized, so she had to do something.

[Siege]

I don't know. I don't dislike him, but when he plays a character I don't see the character, I see the actor. That says to me that he's not a very good actor.

I didn't see Boromir, I saw Sean Bean. And while I think he's doing better as Eddard Stark I still just see Sean Bean.

I've sen Sean Bean in a great many roles, and have never seen him as Sean Bean.  In fact, he was a character actor for a long time before becoming a "name" actor, and I think his ability to allow the role to dominate the performance is the reason for that.  People would mention his name to me, and I wouldn't know who they were talking about until they named some roles he played, and then I would ask things like "Are you telling me that the guy in Caravaggio was the same actor who played the bad guy in Patriot games?"

So I guess we just see different things when we watch him.

I just dicovered recently that the guy that played Faramir also played the blinded dude in 300, and the bad guy in Australia.

[The Brain]

You saw Australia?

[Viking]

Littlefinger's story about the knife is obviously untrue. Provably untrue to boot. Tyrions defense that he never bets against his brother is easy to prove wrong if it is wrong. Tyrion gets convinced that Joffrey sent the assassin since he recognized the knife. Littlefinger is trying to frame Tyrion in the eyes of Ned and Catelyn. The next thing she does is to move back north, taking the rout suggested by Littlefinger and the next thing Ned does is chase down the Jon Arryn's squire and Roberts bastard Gendry with Littlefinger's help. He points the on the path to ruin both of them. When littlefinger later tells Sansa how he wooed the Martell's and how he arranged for the Queen of Thorns to want to murder Joffrey (Margery presumably had the antedote to the poison) he explains exactly how he gets people to do what he wants thinking that they did it on their own initiative. I took that to refer to Catelyn's journey back to Winterfell and Ned's journey to discovering the incest.

A case can be made that Littlefinger is tricking Ned and Catelyn to their dooms.