Game of Thrones begins....

[katmai]

Didn't really show below the waist from front. Backside now...

[Maximus]

I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).

I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?

[katmai]

You fuckers are gonna make me read the books with all the shit you keep posting

[The Larch]

I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).

I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?

Catelyn's actions accelerated what was going to happen anyway.

[Maximus]

Catelyn's actions accelerated what was going to happen anyway.

Correct, but that doesn't address my point.

[The Larch]

Catelyn's actions accelerated what was going to happen anyway.

Correct, but that doesn't address my point.

My understanding is that she didn't really think deeply about it, just seized the opportunity wrongly believing that she'd have the upper hand.

[grumbler]

I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

Not my recollection at all, but the books are poor at maintaining a sense of timing, so you may be right.  Not sure why Gregor would murder riverlanders because Tyrion is arrested, though.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?

If her husband and daughters are in danger, then a counter-hostage is useful.  If they are not, then Catelyn faces no censure for arresting someone she has evidence is a would-be murderer.  Only the reader knows that there are a thousand pages of text in his/her right hand, and so this arrest will trigger a war.  Not knowing how long the books will be makes her actions are less "stupid," IMO.  It is always easy to criticize events or actions from hindsight.

[Maximus]

Gregor is Tywin Lannister's mad dog. Catelyn (Tully) Stark arrested Tyrion Lannister. The Tullys are lords paramount of the trident. It is perfectly clear to me why Tyrion's arrest leads to Gregor murdering riverlanders.

The Stark girls weren't hostages yet when Catelyn left King's Landing iirc. She had wanted to bring them home with her, but Eddard didn't want to show fear, and felt that the girls should learn the ways of the court.

If Catelyn didn't know what kind of man Tywin Lannister was she could be forgiven for not knowing her action would start a war. However she should have known. there were plenty of examples of what happened to those who slighted him. Further, it seems she knew she would be pursued. Her misdirection and flight over the much more dangerous high road says as much.

It seems much more likely that, as the Larch said, she just didn't think. This is stupid, especially in actions between the high houses of the land.

[Gups]

I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).

I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?

No that was part of the reason but not all of it. By the time  of the raids, Ned has been investigating the parentage of Joffrey and his sibling and has been attacked by the kingslayer who has fled Kings Landing. It's obviously all about to kick off and the raids are the preliminaries.

[crazy canuck]

I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).

I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?

No that was part of the reason but not all of it. By the time  of the raids, Ned has been investigating the parentage of Joffrey and his sibling and has been attacked by the kingslayer who has fled Kings Landing. It's obviously all about to kick off and the raids are the preliminaries.

Plus at that point not even Ned knows just how much danger he is in.  Catelyn thinks she has the upper hand (Ned too thinks he has the upper hand right up until his betrayal).  Her husband is both a powerful Lord of the North and the King's hand.  She has apprehended the person she thinks is responsible for the attempted murder of her child.  I see nothing stupid about this.   It is only with hindsight that one can say that, on reflection, it should not have been done.  But in any event, as Gups, points out the plans to eliminate Ned and make way for Joffrey's coronation were already in motion - all of which neither Catelyn nor Ned knew.  They were taking steps towards achieving "justice" - each in their own way - which was true to their character.

[The Larch]

I read somewhere that Clegane's raids were a bait for Ned Stark to leave King's Landing after him and then be able to assasinate Robert with impunity. They'd happen sooner or later, with Tyrion captured or not. Jaime's attack on Ned as retaliation for Tyrion's capture foiled this.

[Slargos]

I always thought that the war started even before Robert's death, with Tywin launching raids into the riverlands (which Ned tried to counter by sending off some of his best men).

I thought the raids started as a direct result of Tyrion's arrest.

We were discussing this last night. Meri contended that the war was coming whatever Catelyn did. This is true, but it was the timing on Catelyn's part that was so stupid. Why start it while your husband and daughters are in such a vulnerable position?

No that was part of the reason but not all of it. By the time  of the raids, Ned has been investigating the parentage of Joffrey and his sibling and has been attacked by the kingslayer who has fled Kings Landing. It's obviously all about to kick off and the raids are the preliminaries.

Plus at that point not even Ned knows just how much danger he is in.  Catelyn thinks she has the upper hand.  Her husband is both a powerful Lord of the North and the King's hand.  She has apprehended the person she thinks is responsible for the attempted murder of her child.  I see nothing stupid about this.   It is only with hindsight that one can say that, on reflection, it should not have been done.  But in any event, as Gups, points out the plans to eliminate Ned and make way for Joffrey's coronation were already in motion - all of which neither Catelyn nor Ned knew.  They were taking steps towards achieving "justice" - each in their own way - which was a decision true to their character.

Concur.

Though unbelievably (perhaps to the point where it hurts the story by disrupting the suspension of disbelief) and blindly naive? Most assuredly so.

[Valmy]

Though unbelievably (perhaps to the point where it hurts the story by disrupting the suspension of disbelief) and blindly naive? Most assuredly so.

There are a couple Stark moments like this in the first book.  You just have to not think about it too much.

[crazy canuck]

Though unbelievably (perhaps to the point where it hurts the story by disrupting the suspension of disbelief) and blindly naive? Most assuredly so.

There are a couple Stark moments like this in the first book.  You just have to not think about it too much.

Not just in the first book.  Robb's decision to take a different bride is stupid without any need of hindsight.  The reader's reaction to it is WTF!

For a house that is initially portrayed as "wise" they are really just Hicks that are out of their league when they come out of the North. 

[Slargos]

Though unbelievably (perhaps to the point where it hurts the story by disrupting the suspension of disbelief) and blindly naive? Most assuredly so.

There are a couple Stark moments like this in the first book.  You just have to not think about it too much.

Not just in the first book.  Robb's decision to take a different bride is stupid without any need of hindsight.  The reader's reaction to it is WTF!

For a house that is initially portrayed as "wise" they are really just Hicks that are out of their league when they come out of the North.

They're certainly portrayed as noble and honourable country bumpkins who can't adapt to the conniving ways of city folk. The blonde farm girl from Idaho recently come to New York City.