Game of Thrones begins....

[grumbler]

So High Septon Maynard annulled the marriage and married Rhaegar and Lyanna.

That means that Dayne and the other Kingsguard likely knew that Jon was the rightful heir (at that point, since the Mad King is dead, and Rhaegar and his children are dead).

I wonder if Ned knew that they were married?

Why did the High Septon keep the secret?

Why wouldn't Rhaegar announce the truth to the world while the war is raging?

The annulment makes zero sense.  An annulment de-legitimizes the children of the annulled marriage.  It makes Elia Martell into a woman who lived with and screwed a man she was not married to.  The insult to House Martell would be mortal.

It makes far more sense to simply have Rhaegar commit bigamy.  It was, after all, a tradition of his house and, while it wouldn't be popular, at least it wouldn't have been so fucking stupid that it sorta destroys any idea that Rhaegar would have been a good king.

And, as you note, it would have made no sense for the High Septon to keep a secret like that.  It would have removed the basis for the rebellion, and possibly have influenced the Great Houses to settle the war.

[grumbler]

2: To prevent Jon/Lyanna being killed in the war's aftermath. Given that he granted the annulment, it is likely that he was close with Rhaegar.

But he kept the secret for months during which the outcome of the war was uncertain.  Maybe Rhaegar convinced him to keep silent in order to keep the Martells from taking the side of the rebels, but the High Septon is supposed to be above such considerations.  This annulment and marriage was of overwhelming public interest.

[Razgovory]

Grumbler has a point.  I suspect the writers thought "annulled" was the same as "divorced".  An annulment like that in the real middle ages would trigger a war.

[Berkut]

Someone up thread mentioned Henry VIII. That is a fine example of "the exception that proves the rule". We know about him BECAUSE what he did was so out of line, so completely unacceptable under the norms of the society that he became this caricature.

I am a bit blurry on the timing however. The marriage would have to have been before the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar died there, presumably after his marriage to Lyana. But with his death, the heir was Viserys anyway, not Elia's children - right?

[grumbler]

Someone up thread mentioned Henry VIII. That is a fine example of "the exception that proves the rule". We know about him BECAUSE what he did was so out of line, so completely unacceptable under the norms of the society that he became this caricature. 

Yeah, Henry VIII could not get an annulment under the rules of society and religion of the time.  That's why he had to pass the Act of Supremacy, so he could give one to himself.

I am a bit blurry on the timing however. The marriage would have to have been before the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar died there, presumably after his marriage to Lyana. But with his death, the heir was Viserys anyway, not Elia's children - right?

The Battle of the Trrident had to be six months or more after the marriage to Lyana, because Rhaegar was moving around with his army for months before the battle, and couldn't have sired Jon (who was born not more than a couple of months after the Battle of the Trident, because Ned couldn't have been searching for Lyana more than a few months, the way the story is told).

So, there was a period of maybe six months, maybe even more, in which the news that Lyana had not been kidnapped at all, but had willingly married Rhaegar, would have made a huge difference.  The Mad King would have to be deposed, of course, but presumably the rebellion could have been largely scotched had the truth about Lyana been widely disseminated.

And, no, the crown doesn't pass to Viserys if Rhaegar has a legitimate son, even one born posthumously.

[HVC]

I have a name

The targaryans were always the exception that proved the rule. They did a lot of things that pissed the nobles and clergy off in the ways that they handled their marriages through incest and polygamy. But yeah, it was dumb to annul a marriage against one of his few allies, but he did become obsessed with his prophecy much like his great grandfather became obsessed with bringing back dragons.

[grumbler]

The targaryans were always the exception that proved the rule. They did a lot of things that pissed the nobles and clergy off in the ways that they handled their marriages through incest and polygamy. But yeah, it was dumb to annul a marriage against one of his few allies, but he did become obsessed with his prophecy much like his great grandfather became obsessed with bringing back dragons.

Rhaegar believed that he needed a third child, because "the dragon has three heads."  Elia Martell could not have a third child, so a second wife was needed.  That's all been known since early days.  It's generally been believed that Elia was okay with Rhaegar taking Lyana as a second wife.

What makes zero sense is that Rhaegar would cast aside his first two children (who become bastards with an annulment, just as Elizabeth and Mary became bastards when Henry VIII annulled his marriages to their mothers) in order to get a third.  Raz is probably correct that the scriptwriter just didn't understand the consequences of an annulment.

[Josquius]

I get the horrible sinking feeling they are really rushing towards an end now.
The whole thing with Tyrion nipping into kings landing, wanting to show cersei a walker, etc.... Bleh

Rhaegar got an annulment and marriage- why? Targaryans can do polygamy.

[Tamas]

I get the horrible sinking feeling they are really rushing towards an end now.
The whole thing with Tyrion nipping into kings landing, wanting to show cersei a walker, etc.... Bleh

Rhaegar got an annulment and marriage- why? Targaryans can do polygamy.

It's almost as if only 9 episodes are left of the whole series.



And regarding teleportation and such, finally they made a mention of this with the kid of Sam's woman. IIRC he was a baby when they arrived, now he is several years older.

[Berkut]

Yeah, I think they kind of forgot to mention that time was passing, and they've dropped a couple lines now in the manner of "it's been years since..." to indicate that the span of the show is literally many years, even though it seems like each episode immediately follows the one preceeding it.

And I am sure you can go back and poke holes in that, btw. The storyline likely doesn't actually have points where say six months might have passed between scenes, because it is obvious the writers never really bothered with that.

Hell, Martin has had the same problem.

How long has Sam been at Oldtown? At least a couple years, right, judging by the age of Gilly's son - he was a baby when they got there, and now he is what, 4 or 5? I thought winter was right around the corner back when they got there, wasn't it?

How long was Arya in Bravos?

The timelines don't match up really. The war has lasted years, but winter has been just months away for...well, since the start of the show?

Best not to think about it too much...

[Josquius]

I remember Sam mentioning he'd saw Bran go through the wall years ago too.

It's interesting as it puts the show more in line with Martin's original ideas than the books.

[viper37]

And, as you note, it would have made no sense for the High Septon to keep a secret like that.  It would have removed the basis for the rebellion, and possibly have influenced the Great Houses to settle the war.

The War began after the King decided to burn alive those who came to ask for Lyanna to be brought back to them, namely Eddard's brother and father.

At this point, even if they learn that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar, it's doubtful the Stark and their allies, most of the North, would stop the war.  The Mad King would never allow Robert Baratheon and his family to live after rebelling.

While it makes no sense for the marriage to be annuled, it makes no sense either for the High Septon to clamor it, it would simply plunge the realm in further chaos.

[viper37]

I am a bit blurry on the timing however. The marriage would have to have been before the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar died there, presumably after his marriage to Lyana. But with his death, the heir was Viserys anyway, not Elia's children - right?

If Lyanna Stark is pregnant and his the rightful wife, due to annulment of his previous marriage, than that makes Jon Snow the real heir.
Rhaegar is the heir to the Mad King.  His children are destined to rule.

If he's still married to Elia Martell, the eldest male children is the heir, not the brother and sister.

[viper37]

So, there was a period of maybe six months, maybe even more, in which the news that Lyana had not been kidnapped at all, but had willingly married Rhaegar, would have made a huge difference.  The Mad King would have to be deposed, of course, but presumably the rebellion could have been largely scotched had the truth about Lyana been widely disseminated.

and it might just be that the Martell now want Rhaegar's head for this insult and they are the ones to rebell.  And Robert Baratheon just does not want to accept that his girl went away with another man and decides to kill them both.

Either way, it's chaos.

[Berkut]

So, there was a period of maybe six months, maybe even more, in which the news that Lyana had not been kidnapped at all, but had willingly married Rhaegar, would have made a huge difference.  The Mad King would have to be deposed, of course, but presumably the rebellion could have been largely scotched had the truth about Lyana been widely disseminated.

and it might just be that the Martell now want Rhaegar's head for this insult and they are the ones to rebell.  And Robert Baratheon just does not want to accept that his girl went away with another man and decides to kill them both.

Either way, it's chaos.

The High Septon agreed to the annulment and marriage, so for some reason he thought it was a good idea. Whatever that reason might be, it seems pretty far fetched to imagine that the reason would be such that the annulment would make sense, yet keeping the fact of it secret is necessary.

Yes, there will be chaos either way - burning major nobles alive creates chaos in a feudal systems regardless.

But from the High Septons standpoint, surely chaos with the truth being known is preferable to chaos based on a lie. The lie did not prevent chaos, obviously, and even without the benefit of hindsight, it is hard to imagine how the lie could be preferable to the truth.

The public perception is that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyana Stark, resulting in his father burning her father and brother alive when they objected.

This results in a major rebellion and about as much chaos as can be imagined, leading to the overthrow of the very dynasty the High Septon just performen an extraordinary marriage and annulment for.

Would it have really pissed off Elia's family to find out she had been set aside? Sure.

As much as it pissed them off to find out she and her children been murdered?

As much as it would piss off the Starks to find out that Lyana was kidnapped and forcibly raped by the Crown Prince?

There is no "non-chaos" option here, and it seems pretty clear that annulling the marriage in secret is vastly worse than doing so publicly.

The answer to the problem of "annulling the marriage will create chaos!" is not annul the marriage, not to do so in secret as if a secret annulment can ever be kept secret anyway.