Israel West Bank Annexations Considered

[garbon]

If the failure of Zionism isn't the result of ethnic cleansing (but perhaps demographic defeat), I don't see why that is a problem.  I mean I can understand that it would be an issue for those wishing to continue an ethno-religious state but I don't see why the rest of the world would be invested in that.

*fixed "ethnically" bit.

[Valmy]

If the failure of Zionism isn't the result of ethnically cleansing (but perhaps demographic defeat), I don't see why that is a problem.  I mean I can understand that it would be an issue for those wishing to continue an ethno-religious state but I don't see why the rest of the world would be invested in that.

I am puzzled.  The problems with Israel-Palestine have to do with Arabs being angry and an entire region be destabilized and said region being already unstable and being of vital importance to word energy production.  The continuation or not continuation of any ethno-religious states is not of particular importance unless you personally have a horse in that race.

[Viking]

This is why you need a two state solution.  If not you either have a situation where Israel ceases to be democratic or she ceases to be Jewish, either would be a failure of Zionism.  The sad thing is I think some of the Israeli far-right, including government figures, are kind of okay with an Israel that's no longer democratic.

You are of course ignoring the "third" option to apartheid or a single Arab majority state. That option is ethnic cleansing. Referred to as "Transfer" in Israel, though it is constantly repeated that using force is not an option. Using force is of course the only way to achieve this. Nobody remembers the Armenians, and after 20 years, people in the ROTW might start to treat the borders of the Palestine Mandate as the borders of Israel, just like they started treating the 1949 Green Line as a border.

The idea that Israel has to give citizenship to hostile aliens is just ludicrous. Israel was basically faced with this choice back on the 12th of june 1967. Either stop being jewish and annex the west bank, gaza, golan and sinai giving citizenship to the arabs living there or give the land back to the arabs (on the condition that the arabs stop their pathetic attempt at genocide); they chose to give the land back, the Arabs chose to continue trying for genocide. So the dilemma you keep trying to present has been resolved decades ago, the issue now, for the israelis, is what land do the israelis need to keep to ensure that the the attempt at genocide remains pathetic.

I don't think it's a rational Israeli desire to expand their land, I think it's a broadly irrational and pretty hateful settler movement that's moved into areas and then has to be protected by the Israeli state.  And, of course, those radical, hateful and irrational people in the West Bank are still people.

If you are a religious jew who thinks that god gave the jews the land then you are rational in wanting all of the land and irrational in conceding any inch of it.
If you are a security focussed israeli jew then wanting to keep strategic plots of land which strengthen israel's security is being rational.
If you are a Mizrahi jew who's land in yemen or egypt was stolen by arabs you might be completely rational in wanting to be compensated for that loss not just as an individual but also as a society.

Seen from london with a detached view being rational is easy since getting it wrong does not mean that you and all your friends, family and neighbors get murdered.

[dps]

TFR (which is the 2.9 number) isn't a very meaningful measure of fertility, since it is an instantaneous snapshot transferred to a lifetime stat.  The population growth rate of Israel is high, but not "fucking enormous."

If there was a single state in Palestine, it would have about 6.3 million non-Jewish and 5.7 million Jewish inhabitants, as near as i can tell.  Unless the CIA fact book is also a "ridiculous canard." 

That being the case then there would not be an eventual demographic defeat of the Jews. 

Yeah, 'cause if there was one unified state, the demographic defeat of the Jews would be immediate, not eventual.

[Valmy]

Yeah, 'cause if there was one unified state, the demographic defeat of the Jews would be immediate, not eventual.

Was I too subtle?

[Sheilbh]

So the dilemma you keep trying to present has been resolved decades ago, the issue now, for the israelis, is what land do the israelis need to keep to ensure that the the attempt at genocide remains pathetic.

I don't consider ethnic cleansing a serious option for a state that has the history and the moral tradition of the Jewish people.

I also think you're conflating an extreme section of the Israeli population with 'Israelis' in general.  I think the dilemma I've presented of the imperative to establish two-states with all of the difficulties that presents or facing a situation in which you have either an Arab sub-class or a non-Jewish state is one that's being grappled with by Labour, the Israeli left in general, by Kadima, generally by Barak's new party and even by a reasonable number of Likudniks.  The dilemma you pose, throwing in ethnic cleansing, is something that I don't think even Lieberman's considering.

If you are a religious jew who thinks that god gave the jews the land then you are rational in wanting all of the land and irrational in conceding any inch of it.
If you are a security focussed israeli jew then wanting to keep strategic plots of land which strengthen israel's security is being rational.
If you are a Mizrahi jew who's land in yemen or egypt was stolen by arabs you might be completely rational in wanting to be compensated for that loss not just as an individual but also as a society.

Which of these arguments doesn't apply to a similar Palestinian?

Seen from london with a detached view being rational is easy since getting it wrong does not mean that you and all your friends, family and neighbors get murdered.

The settler movement aren't representative of Israel.  But to clarify, I meant that I don't think what's happened with settlements was a rational decision by Israel it's happened and Israel's had to deal with it - I can see how saying it's not a rational 'Israeli decision' could be ambiguous.

[grumbler]

That being the case then there would not be an eventual demographic defeat of the Jews. 

In the sense that "demographic defeat of the Jews" is a pretty meaningless concept, you are correct.

In any case the point still stands: Israel-Palestine cannot continue to support such high  birth rates from both Muslims and Jews so long term thoughts based on long term population explosions is rather pointless.

Don't feel bad that this statement doesn't persuade, because argument by assertion has never been persuasive. 

[Valmy]

Don't feel bad that this statement doesn't persuade, because argument by assertion has never been persuasive. 

I do not understand.  Are you denying there is an issue with space and water resources and so forth in that region?  Are you demanding some sort of evidence?  Are you even arguing the contrary?

In the sense that "demographic defeat of the Jews" is a pretty meaningless concept, you are correct.

Again..was I too subtle?

[MadImmortalMan]

Maybe Gentile Ben heard all the rest of the world were nationalizing their banks and he got the wrong idea.

[dps]

Yeah, 'cause if there was one unified state, the demographic defeat of the Jews would be immediate, not eventual.

Was I too subtle?

Sorry, didn't realize that your stupidity was intended to be obfucating.

[Admiral Yi]

My understanding is that a very small percentage of the Israeli residents in the West Bank are Greater Israel zealots.  The great majority are there for the cheap housing.

[Josquius]

My understanding is that a very small percentage of the Israeli residents in the West Bank are Greater Israel zealots.  The great majority are there for the cheap housing.

These days in the long established settlements yeah, I think its so.
They were founded by zealots however and the newer settlements are also inhabited by the crazies. Its a rolling wave of Israeliness.

[Admiral Yi]

These days in the long established settlements yeah, I think its so.
They were founded by zealots however and the newer settlements are also inhabited by the crazies. Its a rolling wave of Israeliness.

I was talking about all the new stuff in the Jerusalem burbs.

[grumbler]

I do not understand.  Are you denying there is an issue with space and water resources and so forth in that region?  Are you demanding some sort of evidence?  Are you even arguing the contrary?

I do not understand.  Why are you throwing up these strawmen?  Your argument is not that " there is an issue with space and water resources and so forth in that region," but that "Israel-Palestine cannot continue to support such high  birth rates," which is obviously an unsupported assertion and hence unconvincing.  Hell, Malthus made the assertion that the anticipated late-1800s population levels could not be sustained, and population levels are some ten times what he said wouldn't be sustainable!

I am willing to bet that Israel-Palestine will continue to support something very much like the current high birth rates for at least the next decade, and maybe even the next two... your assertions notwithstanding.  The population density of Israel and the Palestinian territories is not that high by global standards.  Lebanon, right next door, has a higher population density.

In the sense that "demographic defeat of the Jews" is a pretty meaningless concept, you are correct.

Again..was I too subtle?

"Incoherent" is the word you are looking for, not "subtle."  And the answer is, "yes."  One could hardly help but be incoherent when throwing around phrases like "demographic defeat of the Jews."

[grumbler]

These days in the long established settlements yeah, I think its so.
They were founded by zealots however and the newer settlements are also inhabited by the crazies. Its a rolling wave of Israeliness.

I was talking about all the new stuff in the Jerusalem burbs.

Your understanding is the same as mine;  there are the Israeli-government-planned settlements, mainly around Jerusalem and intended to provide cheaper housing than that in Israel proper (and maybe also to make it harder for future governments to give  up eastern Jerusalem), and the settlement by the pioneer types that want to reclaim all of Eretz Israel (or something like that).