Israel West Bank Annexations Considered

[KRonn]

That's a crazy patchwork of settlements that Israel has created, snaking into the West Bank, etc. Makes it very messy to come to agreement, and with the settlements there it leaves them isolated, as well as Palestinian areas cut off from each other. Very messy.   

[garbon]

[Caliga]

giving them desert isn't great either.

Well, when we gave desert to the Mafia they turned it into Las Vegas.  Why can't the Palestinians achieve something similar?

[Malthus]

giving them desert isn't great either.

Well, when we gave desert to the Mafia they turned it into Las Vegas.  Why can't the Palestinians achieve something similar?

They lack a sense of over-the-top style and glamour.

[Valmy]

But if they form a single state, there would be civil war, and/or the eventual demographic defeat of the jews.

The Jews have a 2.90 birth rate.  That is fucking enormous, the Pals are higher but still....at that rate the place will run out of water and land far before the Pals make enough baby Pals to to outnumber them.  The Demographic bomb is a ridiculous canard based on the assumption Israel-Palestine has infinite land and resources...but it is a tiny country already struggling to support its population.

[Valmy]

That's a crazy patchwork of settlements that Israel has created, snaking into the West Bank, etc. Makes it very messy to come to agreement, and with the settlements there it leaves them isolated, as well as Palestinian areas cut off from each other. Very messy.   

Well yes that was what the Settlers had in mind.

[Valmy]

Fair enough for Israel annexing the settlements near the borders. Palestine should really be given more land in return though, that looks uneven there, giving them desert isn't great either.

Probably true but it is pointless.  There will never be an agreement and this will not end well.  All it takes to destroy an agreement is a small group of people who do not want it....and consider that there are, in fact, large groups of people who want either victory or death on both sides.

[Malthus]

But if they form a single state, there would be civil war, and/or the eventual demographic defeat of the jews.

The Jews have a 2.90 birth rate.  That is fucking enormous, the Pals are higher but still....at that rate the place will run out of water and land far before the Pals make enough baby Pals to to outnumber them.  The Demographic bomb is a ridiculous canard based on the assumption Israel-Palestine has infinite land and resources...but it is a tiny country already struggling to support its population.

Heh, didn't you notice that the Third World is busy crushing the West under the inextorable might of its huge population? 

[The Brain]

Ackward position strategically,

It's a trap!

[Viking]

That's a crazy patchwork of settlements that Israel has created, snaking into the West Bank, etc. Makes it very messy to come to agreement, and with the settlements there it leaves them isolated, as well as Palestinian areas cut off from each other. Very messy.   

Well yes that was what the Settlers had in mind.

Basically they built settlements on any hillside where enplaced artillery could hit downtown tel aviv or mortars could hit downtown jerusalem.

But then again the Israelis have removed settlement both as part of agreements and unilaterally. The problem is that there was no palestinian counter proposal, the arab league offer is merely a guarantee for another war. Meanwhile the Palestinians are refusing to talk unless certain pre-conditions are met by the Israelis (stop all building, rather than just suspend which is what the Israelis have offered/done). Meanwhile HAMAS is trying to provoke a fight of some sort in Gaza either for Internal Medicinal reasons or to scupper the peace talks.

The Palestinian Megaphone diplomacy of today can be a convenient excuse to avoid addressing the really hard issues they face (national reconciliation, unifying the monopoly of force, dealing with corruption, building legitimacy for the government, convincing their people that A) there will have to be a negotiated border with a permanent israel on the other side, B) that the refugees will not return to Israel and C) that there will have to be Israeli military control over Palestinian borders for at least one generation) etc.etc.

I can't help but keep thinking that Palestinian behavior post Oslo and Israeli behavior in 1948 are so completely different and that those different behaviors are the original sin/virtue of the two societies. Effectively Israel disarmed HAMAS and the other groups immediately and arrested the leaders advocating violence and then held elections that gave the government legitimacy. The PA gave weapons to the Irgun and Stern Gang and when Extremist actions provided the legitimacy the PA lacked they got the Haganah to copy the Irgun, they then split up the armed forces into 20 different organizations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY&feature=related) playing one up against the other to avoid getting couped or having put their regime to the test of a fair and free election.

[grumbler]

But if they form a single state, there would be civil war, and/or the eventual demographic defeat of the jews.

The Jews have a 2.90 birth rate.  That is fucking enormous, the Pals are higher but still....at that rate the place will run out of water and land far before the Pals make enough baby Pals to to outnumber them.  The Demographic bomb is a ridiculous canard based on the assumption Israel-Palestine has infinite land and resources...but it is a tiny country already struggling to support its population.

TFR (which is the 2.9 number) isn't a very meaningful measure of fertility, since it is an instantaneous snapshot transferred to a lifetime stat.  The population growth rate of Israel is high, but not "fucking enormous."

If there was a single state in Palestine, it would have about 6.3 million non-Jewish and 5.7 million Jewish inhabitants, as near as i can tell.  Unless the CIA fact book is also a "ridiculous canard." 

[Valmy]

TFR (which is the 2.9 number) isn't a very meaningful measure of fertility, since it is an instantaneous snapshot transferred to a lifetime stat.  The population growth rate of Israel is high, but not "fucking enormous."

If there was a single state in Palestine, it would have about 6.3 million non-Jewish and 5.7 million Jewish inhabitants, as near as i can tell.  Unless the CIA fact book is also a "ridiculous canard." 

That being the case then there would not be an eventual demographic defeat of the Jews.  In any case the point still stands: Israel-Palestine cannot continue to support such high  birth rates from both Muslims and Jews so long term thoughts based on long term population explosions is rather pointless. 

[KRonn]

That's a crazy patchwork of settlements that Israel has created, snaking into the West Bank, etc. Makes it very messy to come to agreement, and with the settlements there it leaves them isolated, as well as Palestinian areas cut off from each other. Very messy.   

Well yes that was what the Settlers had in mind.

I realize that, and I can understand Israel's desire to expand their land.  Such a small nation overall, surrounded by enemies, many of them radical, hateful and irrational by democracy minded people.

[Sheilbh]

I cant see how peace could work here. the whole outline of future Palestine is just an insult: here, have the lands we dont need. Ackward position strategically, and I imagine economically.

But if they form a single state, there would be civil war, and/or the eventual demographic defeat of the jews.

This is why you need a two state solution.  If not you either have a situation where Israel ceases to be democratic or she ceases to be Jewish, either would be a failure of Zionism.  The sad thing is I think some of the Israeli far-right, including government figures, are kind of okay with an Israel that's no longer democratic.

I realize that, and I can understand Israel's desire to expand their land.  Such a small nation overall, surrounded by enemies, many of them radical, hateful and irrational by democracy minded people.

I don't think it's a rational Israeli desire to expand their land, I think it's a broadly irrational and pretty hateful settler movement that's moved into areas and then has to be protected by the Israeli state.  And, of course, those radical, hateful and irrational people in the West Bank are still people.

[Norgy]

Nationalising banks? Have the Jews gone mad?