Crusader Kings 2 Redux

[jimmy olsen]

Franks are fucking useless.

Iberia has fallen and Aquataine has been almost completely overrun. I've been joining and fighting holy war constantly for the last 25 years to prevent Bourbon from falling. If it weren't for me and Lombardy, France would probably have been completely overrun by now.

Oh, I also crowned myself King of Wales soon after I became King of England.

[garbon]

CK2 forum is looking pretty gross with posts about feminist agendas running p'dox design.

[Valmy]

CK2 forum is looking pretty gross with posts about feminist agendas running p'dox design.

I could only kidnap 18 concubines last game! Damn feminists!

[jimmy olsen]

Saves work fine, but it kicks you back down to gavelkind. You need legalism 3 to get late feudal law and get primogeniture. So I'll have to go seniority or elective until then.

Ugh gots some gross old MRA guy ranting in the background at the classy restaurant I'm at.

[garbon]

I'm in no rush to get the dlc, but content pack looks nice.

• Corners of the Earth Building Pack: Pyramids of Giza, Petra, Hadrian's Wall, Charlemagne's Palace, Visby Ringmur, and the Agra Fort appear on the map
• Finno-Ugric Portrait Pack: New faces for this northern nation
• Indian Boats Unit Pack and Arabic Boats Unit Pack
• Mongol/Steppe Male and Female Councilor Model Pack
• Western/Christian Female Councilor Model Pack
• New Event Pictures and one new loading screen: because we love our artists

[frunk]

Ugh gots some gross old MRA guy ranting in the background at the classy restaurant I'm at.

Wow, CK2 has really changed from the last time I looked at it.

[Sophie Scholl]

The reviews on Steam for the latest expansion are pretty dismal.  Apparently the coalition concept is pretty broken at the moment.

[garbon]

I think people are just against coalitions. P'dox was prompted to post a defense of concept and details about how they really work.

[Syt]

Here's rageair's explanation:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/clarifying-coalitions.906098/

I'm gonna take some time to clarify some misconceptions regarding coalitions. There's a LOT of assumptions and outright lies circulating both here on the Paradox Forums and on Reddit. Here we go:

1. Coalition Members judge you on an individual basis, depending on a combination of many different factors. Infamy is not a constant value affecting everyone equally. I.e.:
- Proximity/distance to you (In general, nations that neighbor you or are within 2 sea zones will want to join).
- Amount of Infamy (You'll have a larger coalition at 100% infamy than 26%).
- If you have a CB against them.
- Their size in comparison to you.
- Their army size in comparison with you.
- There's also a hard block where you can't have a coalition member that's 90% or larger than their targets realm size (so the HRE could never coalition France, for example).

Some people groundlessly claim that large Kings and Emperors would care about the Infamy of small Dukes. This is objectively false and would never happen.


2. If you get a non-aggression pact or alliance with a coalition member, they will instantly leave the coalition against you. This means that it's more important than ever to have a large family and marry them off tactically. Remember that you can use favors to force cross-religious marriages, and as such you can also remove threats of foreign religions from your coalition.


3. No, the Pope won't defend the Abbasids if you decide to Holy War them. Even if the Abbasids and the Pope is in the same coalition against you, they won't necessarily join wars declared on each other. CB's marked as 'Holy' will not incur the wrath of your coreligionists, this most notably applies to the common 'Holy War' CB.


4. Infamy & Coalitions is designed to be a challenge in the mid-to-late game. You will be hard pressed to even gain a coalition unless you're ruling a very large realm or attack multiple neighbors very rapidly. It was designed like this on purpose. Also, the infamy decay scales on your size. Some example scenarios:
France 1066, 184 realm size. If you take all of de jure Brittany in 1 day (total of 6 provinces) you'll just hit 25%. Your infamy decay allows you to get rid of this Infamy in 7 years, but remember that it's only infamy over 25% that matter, so values between 0-24% will not see you have a coalition at all. So in other words, you have to wait but three months until the coalition's gone.
HRE 1066, 375 realm size. Now, with a nation this large you'll inevitably gain a coalition when taking a large chunk of land (i.e. the duchy of Obotritia, a common target, 4 provinces). If you wish to wait for the coalition to pass, you need to wait three years (a minuscule time in a game spanning up to 700 years). Though remember, if you're strong enough you can just fight your coalition.

5. Coalitions are not designed to ruin your nation, merely to contain it. Coalitions will not attack you with the implicit intent of dismantling you. This is not EU. Coalitions are defensive by nature, and while coalition members can start offensive wars against you, they won't join if the goal is to take a lot of land from you. It's very, very uncommon for the AI to do this.


Tips & Tricks
If you're having a hard time with coalitions, here's how I deal with them. I play the game a lot, and I find that there's several interesting ways to work around coalitions. Here's a picture of my currently ongoing game, where I'm at 100% infamy (note that I'm not trying for a World Conquest, if I were I'd be much bigger):



As you can see, the coalition against me is but a fraction of my massive size (my realm size is 1000+). How come I don't have a massive coalition against me? One of those you've seen posted around the forums? This is how I do it:
- Non Aggression pacts! I have a massive family, and have nestled my family's blood into almost every other major nation in Europe. This allows me to keep all powerful nations out of the coalition, as they're either of my family or married to my close kin. This requires careful planning though - but that's what a dynasty simulator like CK2 does best!
- Favor usage. By buying favors off of foreign rulers who are in distress, i.e. when they need money for a costly war, I can force NaP's on them through marriages/betrothals. This has allowed me to force both Christians and steppe people to leave me alone.
- Infamy-clearing conquest/independence grants. Sometimes I decide to invade a nation just to remove it as a potential enemy. I claimed many major European Kingdoms for characters who could be considered my friends - groomed by me and married to my close kin. I then grant them independence. This results in a loyal ally who not only won't join coalitions against me, but also support me in my wars! I also lose a large chunk of Infamy (in my case 100%).
- Attacking revolts. Major revolts of other nations don't join coalitions. This is by design, as there's an inherent danger of attacking a revolt - if it ends, so will your war. I've used this to opportunistically expand my realm wherever there's strife.
- Let my vassals expand for me! I make sure to set up my vassals in such a fashion that they have juicy targets next to them. Infamy gained by vassal conquests is but a fraction of what you'd get yourself, and vassals don't trigger coalition wars!
- Though most importantly I've paced myself. I've realized that I don't have to be at war constantly to do well. I spend a lot of time managing my council and my vassals while waiting for infamy to tick down.

Notes
We're aware that a lot of the info presented here is obscured or not available in-game, we're working on making the information readily available to the player.

We're planning a few tweaks to how infamy is gained, currently adding individual infamy-levels to different types of CB's and re-balancing how many nations join against you at various levels of infamy.

Note that this thread only exists to explain to you how the feature works and how you use it. Please keep discussion civil.

[jimmy olsen]

I like the council and education changes, don't have experience with the coalition system yet, don't like that they've nerfed a lot of the relationship bonuses.

[Razgovory]

Can the player join coalitions?

[Martinus]

Loving the game so far. Started a new one as Bedford in the earliest start.

My current character Sigeric, grandson of my first character, finally managed to create the Kingdom of England but his beginnings were not as promising. He ascended to the throne of Bedford at a tender age of 16, already known as Arbitrary, Cowardly Drunkard, following the regency (during the last years of his incapable father), of the powerful Cardinal Bishop of Kent - who also happened to be master seducer, and managed to fuck and have bastards with Sigeric's mother, the Queen, the King's sister and 3 other women.

Upon Sigeric's succession, two of his brothers inherited the duchies of Kent and Norfolk his father has amassed (they were too young for me to "manage" them before the father died).

The vassals of Sigeric's father, lords of Warwick, Oxford and Leicester (by the time I got those I was clever enough not to create Duchies until I get to become the King) felt strong and demanded that he empowers the ducal council or they revolt, and young Sigeric had no choice but to acquiesce.

Now, 20 years later...

Sigeric, now known as Sigeric the Black is the King of England (although Northumbria, Hereford, Lancaster and parts of Wessex still refuse to swear fealty), one of his brothers is in oubliette and the other in a better place (the Pope was kind enough to absolve him of fratricide after a hefty donation), his powerful Dukes and Archbishops are all in prison as well, having being either foolish enough to try another rebellion or having been tried for sodomy, witchcraft and other misdeeds (Spy On function of Spy focus rocks), and the council - composed of two Jews, a petty baron, his lowborn drinking buddy and his wife - just approved the restoration of the Absolute Rule, reversing the forced privileges granted during his youth.

Now, the succession is going to be fun, as his eldest son is a lazy, rowdy soldier boy but his second son is extremely learned and wise scholar who studied theology...

[jimmy olsen]

With the coming of the Crusading orders the tide turned. I conquered Norway in a crusade and will leave it to my second son. I helped the King of East Frankia conquer Gerle from the Germans and defended Burgundy from a Umayyad jihad. Things seemed to be going well for the faith...until I noticed that Bavaria had been conquered by Hindu Khazars! 

[Jacob]

I'm loving this game

Got the last expansions I didn't have (Way of Life, Horse Lords, and Conclave) and decided to play a viking game again. Went with Denmark - or rather the Skjoldungs - in the earliest start (pre sea-borne raiding). They've tuned the "Sweden is superior" starting positions down a bit but Denmark still is more challenging as you start as an old dude (late 50s IIRC) with two grown sons, so you know you're going to kick the bucket and have to deal with gavelkind succession in short order.

The Tale of Skjoldung Junior and His Sorrows

Skjoldung Progenitor takes the "King of Denmark" ambition and in short order gathers enough territory to fulfill the ambition, but he doesn't have the gold and little prospect for gaining it. He also subjugates the Jarl of Svidjod - the main potential rival in the area - in makes most of the rest of the Norse his tributaries.

Skjoldung Progenitor has two sons, Skjoldung Senior and Skjoldung Junior. Skjoldung Senior has the family focus and puts significant effort into getting the family to like him, which is nice. Nonetheless Skjoldung Junior is the favoured heir.

Eventually Progenitor dies, and the Petty Kingdom of Sjaelland (and thus the player character) passes to Junior, along with the Jarldom of Austergautland. Senior gets jarldoms of Jutland and Svidjod.

The two brothers have a good relationship (+30 from familial love), but when it comes to power these things mean less. Junior declares war on Senior to reunite the territories. Still, family is family so rather than pressing all his claims (thus stripping Senior of his titles), he goes for subjugation (so getting the jarldoms, and turning Senior into his vassal). This act of familial betrayal tempered by love unalterably changes the future course of the realm... and Juniors; shortly thereafter, he gets the depressed trait.

But for now the realm is united. Looking to the future - perhaps to reform the Norse faith and perhaps to create a great empire of the North - Junior alternates between making the remaining Norse great men his tributaries (no convenient CBs, but tributary wars can always be declared and increase vassal opinion by +10, as well as adding a tiny bit of income) and conquering the various Suomi tribes (+1 to Norse Pagan standing, which is sorely needed after Karl the Great of Francia burned Irminsul after conquering the Saxons).

Eventually, slowly, steadily, over many years (and a few ransoms) Junior accumulates enough gold to proclaim the Kingdom of Denmark. Sweden was also available - and would have been a better choice for gameplay reasons (more CBs for building towards the empire, large realm to stay with the kingdom post gavelkind division), but I stick with Denmark as Sjaelland is home. Of course, it means that my secondary heir will get the Kingdom of Sweden, since it can be created, and war will follow.

Speaking of heirs, Junior has three sons: Oldest, Middle, and Imbecile. Imbecile is, as can be guessed from the name, an imbecile (0 stats across the board as a young man). Middle, unfortunately for him but perhaps better for the realm, dies from illness as a teenager. The lords of Denmark (Junior, Senior, and three others) prefer Senior as their next king, rather than Oldest. It is not the worst thing in the world, the brotherly love still exists in spite of everything, but it is not preferred. This is reinforced by Oldest apparently taking a cue from his uncle, Senior, and spending time to become friends with his father. Eventually, Junior's depression lifts from being around his kind and content son.

As such Junior continues to groom Oldest for the succession. He finds a young woman - Genius Girl - from the region on the border to Finland as a prospective bride for Oldest. She's a genius, so hopefully that'll counteract whatever influence resulted in Imbecile being, well, an imbecile.

Genius Girl is, like, 6 when the match is made while Oldest is 20, but that's fine. If he starts having kids later, that lowers the potential realm-splitting from gavelkind. It does mean that as Junior conquers more Suomi territories he exceeds the number of recommended holdings, holding on to them until after the wedding. The vassals do not like this, but it is mostly offset by them being impressed by the tributary wars so fuck 'em, honestly.

Senior's wife does start a plot to kill Oldest, but after a few maneuvres she ends up in the prison of a tributary chieftain. It does break the unspoken agreement not to kill others in the family. These are hard times.

For some reason the betrothal with Genius Girl gets cancelled out every few years, but Junior renews it tenaciously every time.

Finally, almost a decade later, it's a few months before Genius Girl turns 16 and the marriage can be held. About time, because Junior is something like 6 counties above the limit and people are beginning to be a little too annoyed... and soon it will be 8 counties over, just as soon as the army is moved back from somewhere in Norway to Finland.

Once again, with mere weeks to go, the betrothal gets cancelled. Worse, this time it can't be renewed for some reason. WTF? Shit... it turns out it's because Junior had gotten a little too lax with the war waging and had let a holding be taken by the Suomi. Who was the one person their dragged away as a hostage? Genius Girl. FFS!

No trouble, it only takes a few months to soundly trash the fuckers and conquer their province. Time to get Oldest married and give him some titles as he's close to 40 years old. Perhaps once he holds two jarldoms and once Junior gives up the excess holdings, he'll get the votes to be the next King. Except, it turns out, Genius Girl had turned 16 in captivity and the fuckers who kidnapped her gave her away as a concubine to some Romuva fucker way out of reach. FFS!

All this waiting for nothing, lost in the last few weeks. Oldest has to settle for a different, less wonderful, bride because Junior won't push this off too much longer. As his wedding gift, Oldest receives two Jarldoms (Svidjod and Vestergautland) and a total of 8 counties - one of which is in Denmark so it makes him an elector in the upcoming royal election.

Shortly thereafter, Senior dies. Excellent news. This should make Oldest the leading contender for the throne... but no... there are five electors, Junior, Oldest, Senior's only son and heir Gay Nephew (whose wife is gay too), and two vassals. Gay Nephew is voting for himself, as are the two vassals (one of whom is a vassal of Oldest, the other a vassal of Junior). Bastards!

No worries... well some worries apparently, because the depression comes back... but there's a solution to the problem at least. Since Gay Nephew has no children yet, Junior is his heir. Junior starts scheming to murder Gay Nephew. Not enough people are willing to help, but give it time. Eventually it'll take, or maybe he can work on one of the other vassals to switch their vote. Give it time.

But no! Gay nephew declares war on Oldest for the Jarldom of Svidjod - he's got claims on them from his father - and it looks like he's winning. The whole point of giving Oldest all those counties was to give him a strong position for the eventual Kingship so this is not according to plan at all. Gay Nephew's army beats Oldest in battle. The war is not over yet, but unfortunately since they're both vassals, there's nothing Junior can do.

Yes there is! Junior decides to eat the -15 negative opinion to revoke one of Gay Nephew's Danish counties. Hopefully he'll reject the revocation, Junior can join the war, kill him off, and give the Danish county to someone who'll vote for his preferred heir.

Gay Nephew swallows the bait and rises up in rebellion. This will end him... he's got about 600 men following him, while junior has more than 2000 and can easily call in another 4-5000 from vassals and tributaries.

Junior's army gathers and marches, bringing certain doom to Gay Nephew and the promise of a neat resolution to the dynastic wranglings and the problems of gavelkind.

Another battle is joined between the armies of Gay Nephew and Oldest... and... Oldest is slain! Leading his army, he is selected by the Valkyries and carried off to Valhalla.

The army still marches, and soon battle will be joined, but Junior's hopes lie in ashes. He's approaching 70 and there are only two possible heirs: Gay Nephew - in active rebellion and killer of Junior's favoured son and heir - and Imbecile (who's still 0 across the board in stats).

At this point I saved the game, but I'll probably continue tonight.

I'm considering the following options:

1) Give up the war, vacating the throne to Gay Nephew and then having Junior kill himself. That's the "his will to live shattered, but WTF will happen in-game" option.

2) Win the war, releasing Gay Nephew, giving him all the titles I wanted him to continue having, then have Junior kill himself. That's the "putting the needs of the dynasty above his own vengeance" option.

3) Win the war, executing Gay Nephew and accepting Imbecile as the next King. That's the "fuck you, you killed my son" option.

4) Win the way, keeping Gay Nephew in prison and see if I can somehow reform Norse Paganism before Junior dies (I need to conquer Naumadal, though I have no CB, and to take six more non-Norse counties to get the religion strength up to 50% - which may not happen before Junior dies since he's friggin' 70). That's the "I don't even know what to do, so I'll turn towards religion" choice. I suppose I could do that while executing Gay Nephew as well.

Not sure what I'll do yet, but like I said... I love this game

[Jacob]

Can the player join coalitions?

Yup.

They seem a bit wack. I'm in a mega coalition against Karl Karling, who's got all of Western Europe South of Denmark and North of the Pyrenees. It seems a little silly that a bunch of petty Norse Lords are in coalition with some major Christian realms, many petty lords in the British Isles, and a number of Muslim realms.

But it hasn't really affected game play so far.