Crusader Kings 2 Redux

[celedhring]

It's a nice addition if it can be unlocked via technology, imho. There's also the matter of other playable cultures having equivalent figures (I'm not familiar enough with anything to the East of the Adriatic to judge).

[garbon]

Big message of answers coming up:

So out of curiousity, how will the anti-blobbing mechanics we see here affect something like the Golden Horde, which is supposed to blob out of control?

Basically this will force rulers (especially large ones) to have more powerful vassals. As long as the vassals are peaceful and quiet this should not be a problem, but as we all know this is not always the case.

Also, using the centralization law to give you higher vassal limit will force you as the liege to say no to those precious demense size modifiers, which can also be weakening.

Do the names of Viceroys get taken into account for the numbering of future rulers?

Yes.

Would it be possible for a character to have a viceroyalty in a different realm? Could an english duke have French counties or vice-versa?

Viceroyalties seem kinda OP. Distribute the whole realm to viceroyalties, bam, no rebellions.

No, viceroyalties can not be independent from you. If the viceroy would become independent from you in any way, the viceroyalty will change to an ordinary kingdom / duchy.

And yes, viceroyalties are really good, especially now with the vassal limit. However, the opinion bonus for being granted a viceroyalty is less than for being granted an ordinary title, so I would not expect a rebellion-free realm.

Since viceroys are given through an interaction, the player must actually hold the kingdom title in order to give it as a viceroy. So pressing the claim of a vassal on a kingdom outside your realm will give you a vassal king and not a viceroy.

Since viceroys are given through an interaction, the player must actually hold the kingdom title in order to give it as a viceroy. So pressing the claim of a vassal on a kingdom outside your realm will give you a vassal king and not a viceroy.

Sorry another couple of questions. If a viceroy's vassals don't like him do they rebel against him or you? Can the vassals overthrow your chosen viceroy with someone else?

Factions against a viceroy work in the same manner as factions against a king. However, vassals to a viceroy can not overthrow this vassal.

Aren't viceroy's overpowered? You could just constantly give them out instead of appointing permanent duchies (if you don't have enough dynasty members).
Also, the auto-title giving system sounds awesome, holy wars were tedious because of that title wipe.

Duchy viceroyalties are due to the technology requirement available in late game only. By that time you will probably have a lot of vassals already with regular duchies.

Judging from the replies, so long as that title gives your viceroy authority over your vassals, then yes. So, if you're the Byzantines and you have douxes in Tracesia, Charsianon, and Trebizond, and you appoint a Viceroy over all of Anatolia, all those vassals should go to your Viceroy, who will then be the only relevant vassal (so, instead of, say 3 vassals, you now have 1).

Honestly, as someone who enjoys playing proper Imperial titles, this is going to be fantastic. I have more questions for the devs:
- Is there anything the Viceroy is prohibited from doing? For example, can he create duchies underneath him, if he's king-tier and all the vassals under him are counts?
- Can viceroys create titles above what they have? For example, if you hold all the duchy titles that constitute a kingdom (or even just the required number for forming normally), grant them all as a viceroyalty, can your duke-tier viceroy create the kingdom title?
- Are the kingdom viceroy law and duchy viceroy law completely exclusive? So, could you have both king-tier viceroys and duke-tier viceroys? If so, can your viceroys have viceroys?
- Can you appoint non-feudal vassals (bishops and doges) as viceroys? Can Empire-tier Bishops and Doges appoint viceroys?

- A viceroy is not prohibited in any way, and can create duchies. And yes, this means that even if you make a vassal powerful using viceroyalties, the vassal and his/her dynasty might grow dangerous.
- A viceroy can create title as a regular vassal can.
- Only emperors can have viceroy-laws, and having the viceroy-law enabled for duchies also have them enabled for kingdoms. Transferring a viceroyal duke to a viceroyal king would in theory mean that the duke-title would be given to the viceroy king when the duke dies.
- There is no government type-requirement for viceroyalties, as long as the emperor is not tribal. So yes.

As far as I understand, for those purposes, they're pretty much just standard vassals; you have as many as your limit allows, any land they get from you doesn't count towards your desmense...

If you're over your vassal limit when you die, can your viceroys also declare independence?

Yes. I recommend using viceroyalties to ensure this do not happen however.

Viceroys sound amazing and a long-awaited addition, but like many others I have to ask: what is the catch? Is there a limit to how many you can have and such? While the Empires are supposed to be less feudal, this poses the question of them becoming downright overpowered.

And I love the BWB. Never knew that white would fit 'em so well!

Catch one is that having these laws enabled will lower your vassal limit.
Catch two is that even viceroys (who will probably be pretty powerful) could choose to turn against you.

- Can viceroys start factions/plots to make their title hereditary?
- Can the CA of a viceroy's title be changed by the viceroy or their vassals?
- How does the vassal limit scale with dynastic prestige, Diplomacy, and tier? In other words: How many vassals do you get for a point in dynastic prestige, one point in ruler Diplomacy, or from a specific tier?
- Does any tech give a bonus to vassal limit? Can this be modded in, if that is not the case?
- Can a designated regent be unseated through the actions of other vassals or courtiers?
- How hard is it to change the regent's mind? Is it mainly based on their opinion of you, or will you be running into a "-----" to some actions even if the regent really likes you (a Zealous Catholic regent might oppose any attempt to declare war on the Pope even if you bribe him)?

- The title will become hereditary if the viceroy manages to become independent.
- Yes, CA can be changed by the viceroy.
- This is still subject to change so I can't give you any exact numbers.
- There is no tech to give bonus to vassal limit (and as mentioned there is no longer any tech to give bonus to demesne size). Both these effects can be modded in.
- Nope.
- Opinion will have an effect, but some interactions will be difficult - for instance to convince your regent to marry someone of another religion and culture.

These changes sound nice, but I do have a few questions:

1) Will an AI sovereign assign viceroyalties?

2) Will there be a means by which a vassal can request a viceroyalty from his or her liege?

3) Will there be a means (a faction, a plot besides murder, or a casus belli) for vassals to depose unpopular viceroys?

4) How much power can a viceroy have?

4a) Can a viceroy raise the levies of all the vassals assigned to his or her viceroyalty wherever he or she makes war?

4b) Can a viceroy revoke the titles of the vassals assigned to his or her viceroyalty?

4c) Can a viceroy raise or lower the crown authority within his or her designed region?

1 Yes. Both duchy and kingdom viceroyalties.
2 No.
3 There is no faction or plot to dethrone a viceroy as a vassal.
4 As much as you as the emperor allow them to (or as much as the viceroy manages to get despite your efforts).
a, b, c: The viceroy can do all of these.

I'm kinda wondering... will the vasal limit depend on the number of highest tier titles held, or just on the title rank? Because if it's the latter it would seem that a world conquest (which is not the goal of the game, I know, but can be an interesting thing to strive for) is made impossible - you'd surely reach a point where you'd have too many vassals! Or do you bump up the limits by creating more kingdoms and empires for you to keep?

It depends on the title rank. But as already mentioned, it will also expand along with your family prestige. So there is no "max" to this limit.

[garbon]

Good news - viceroys are only an empire thing so no big deal.

On a different note, bit below seems rather silly, IMO.

I have two questions:
1) if a vassal becomes independent when a ruler dies, does this means that a war automatically starts (as if it was an Independence faction) or will the vassal simply become indepedent and at peace with the new ruler?
2) if the answer to the question above is that they remain at peace, will the new ruler automatically gain a casus belli to retake the lands of the vassal that became independent?

The vassal will become independent without any war starting and without the ruller gaining a casus belli. However, if the vassal is your de jure vassal you can still use the existing De Jure casus belli to reclaim the lands.

[Razgovory]

So not common for most Ck2 states in the time period?

Well not Catholic ones.  It may better describe Muslim and Byzantine empires.

[garbon]

So not common for most Ck2 states in the time period?

Well not Catholic ones.  It may better describe Muslim and Byzantine empires.

Only if say, Byzantines/Abbasids were set to have "duchy viceroys" from the start.

[Razgovory]

Actually now that I think about it, it does sort of describe era of Charlemagne before feudalism and the system of benefices.

[celedhring]

Damn, I guess I'll have to create Hispania in my Aragon games to get my viceroys

[garbon]

Actually now that I think about it, it does sort of describe era of Charlemagne before feudalism and the system of benefices.

True, though again only if it starts that way from the get. From what they've said so far, it sounds like empires work up to these appointees (aka non-dynastic assignments, reverting to crown at death of holder) when really it should be the other way around as appointees were less common with the rise of feudal states.  Also AFAIK, with these Carolingian, Abbasid and Byzantine examples, these appointees were the rule, not the exception.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, they almost have to create an earlier start date...

[garbon]

I'm not sure I follow.

[Martinus]

I'm not sure I follow.

I think Raz is saying that in order to let this mechanics get a wider use, they should push the starting date back even more (and not just to Charlemagne era), as by the time Charlemagne came into power, the life-appointed governors in the West were already gone.

[Razgovory]

I was saying that the system describes the time the Carolingian period i.e. 769 which is conveniently the new start date.  It really falls apart around the Old Gods Start date.  Before declaring himself a king, Boso was a viceroy.  He and his dynasty are players in the 869 start date.

[garbon]

Yeah but the issue is that they've presented this viceroys as something that empires work towards. As I noted, and you've noted in your example, viceroys should be something in place for the new start but gradually go out of fashion.

[Razgovory]

Yeah but the issue is that they've presented this viceroys as something that empires work towards. As I noted, and you've noted in your example, viceroys should be something in place for the new start but gradually go out of fashion.

Well, the centralizing power waxed and waned quite a bit over the period.  States would go back and forth over the time period often depending on the particular king or queen.  England starts out as only a theoretical country and ended the period as strong centralized power.  The Holy Roman Empire started out as coherent polity but ends the period as barely a state at all.

[garbon]

Ah but Raz, centralization is completely different from viceroys in CK2 terms. Which one poster noted that to have a large centralized empire best strategy is to have realm mostly ruled by viceroys...so paradoxically a centralized one is also a rather decentralized one.