Crusader Kings 2 Redux

[Viking]

I dont really disband leveis during wars. One thing to remember is to always disband in a friendly territory as otherwise you lose half of them.

I measure the epicness of wars by how many times I have to re-raise the levies.

[The Minsky Moment]

Well, France and Germany was Western Christendom at the time.  I think you are thinking about England which was still fairly Scandinavian.

I thought hereditary feudalism wasn't really present until the early 10th century in Southern France or Northern German?

La mutation de l'an mil?

My understanding is that the scholarship has been moving away from that view since the 70s and the more dominant paradigm is to see continuities between the Carolingian period and its aftermath.  The analysis is complicated by the limitations of the source material.  And of course even in the 11th century, "feudalism" is still really a historian's construct to help categorize a more complex and varied social reality.

[The Minsky Moment]

Any particular case studies?  Looking around the usual suspects (Toulouse, Provence, Gascony, Aquitaine, Saxony) all have hereditary rulers in 867.

I'm guessing Sheilbh was thinking about the spread of hereditary "banal lordships" at territorial levels lower than an entire principality or dukedom.  Even there the evidence is a lot more mixed.

[Caliga]

I was playing as the d'Hautevilles last night.  First time I'd tried them since CK1.  It's impressive what you can do with a 400-man army if you have the right friends.

So far, I've taken Naples and defeated a rebellion by the Count of Taranto.  The Sicilian Muslims attacked me but I got a little help from my friends Croatia, England, and the Pope and beat them back.  During this war some other Emirate conquered Salerno, so naturally that's my next target.

King of Sicily now.... and the size of my levy is almost up to 1,200 men total!

I still can't wipe out that goddamn Emirate of Salerno because one of my brothers, the Count of Foggia, is being held hostage by him.  So I've got an active plot to kill my brother now.

[Martinus]

Started a new game as Fatimids in 1066. Love the dynastic purges every time a new Caliph ascends to the throne. 

[garbon]

There's an interview with Johan now that purportedly states they are working on a new tech system?

[Cecil]

Link?

[Syt]

Link?

[Razgovory]

It seems that trying to keep plotting from going on in your country is like tilting and windmills.  Every week three more idiots decide to start a plot to murder someone for no discernible reason.  I already have 300 people in jail as it is.  I cheated and conquered the entire world and tried to set up a stable empire.  If I give it over to the AI it collapses within 10 years.

[Sheilbh]

I'm guessing Sheilbh was thinking about the spread of hereditary "banal lordships" at territorial levels lower than an entire principality or dukedom.  Even there the evidence is a lot more mixed.

Exactly. Decline of peasant liberties, the rise of castellans and the peace of God were changes that happened after 867, from my understanding, that underpinned the new feudal order of social obligations. Though I also thought, though I could be wrong, that 'feudal lordship' was normally granted by the Emperor or their successor and wasn't hereditary at that point.

La mutation de l'an mil?

My understanding is that the scholarship has been moving away from that view since the 70s and the more dominant paradigm is to see continuities between the Carolingian period and its aftermath.  The analysis is complicated by the limitations of the source material.  And of course even in the 11th century, "feudalism" is still really a historian's construct to help categorize a more complex and varied social reality.

Yep. I knew it was still a controversial theory and subject to great debate. But I don't really know how the debate's moved on, or much about the anti-l'an mil argument.

[Jaron]

I am being way too picky, but I'm having trouble immersing myself into CK2. I feel like there are a lot of great elements, but each of them is very shallow.

Warfare is not very engrossing. There is really no strategy or tactic that comes into play. It is simply a matter of moving armies into a province and waiting to capture it.

The economic/infrastructure area is not very deep. There really is little strategy involved in developing a province. From my own experiences and what others have told me, it comes down to 'build towns'.

No naval combat. I won't comment on this further since it has already been discussed to death.

Given the type of game CK is, I could dismiss all of that as being consequences of the zoomed out strategic level Paradox games tend to operate at, but the character/event model feels unambitious. I don't feel like I'm playing a unique character facing challenges unique to the circumstances of their life - I just feel like I'm clicking the same few answers to recycled events.

I'm still trying to put my finger on what I feel like I'm missing, but right now I find it has very limited replayability, despite the fact no two games are identical.

[Tamas]

It's growing a bit old for me as well, but let's face it: I played it a LOT last year. And I think it's just that I have become too proficient in it. Which may very well be the game's fault rather than my überness, but fact remains: where as a noob I struggled to keep my realm together, I tackle almost all challenges now with ease, quickly identifying future issues and taking care of them.

Which does make the whole thing a bit repetitive

[Martinus]

My personal problem with the game is that it is often a lot of fun for the first 100 years or so, but then it becomes somewhat tedious - maybe it's because it has that sandbox approach, where you set your own goals, but the problem is that once you become powerful (for me, this happens when you create your own empire), there is not really that much to do other than ceaseless expansion - and this, in turn, kills the whole Sim Feudalism feel of the game to me, as you are forced to ignore a lot of messages about "personal lifes" of characters, as otherwise you are getting swamped with them.

I think it would be cool if the game offered some other ways of increasing your overall glory than just gaing more land - getting your brother elected the Pope or a Grand Master of the holy order would be a good example of the kind of goals this game lacks.

Edit: A nice contrast to that is a game as Byzantium, where you have goals such as restoring the Roman empire or healing the schism - which is exactly the kind of thing lacking for other countries once you get beyond the point of creating an empire in your corner of the map. Decisions and plots to get your family and proteges elected to special positions such as Archishops (with papal investiture), Grand Masters or the Pope would be great.

[Caliga]

With my Kingdom of Sicily circa 1115 AD game I was mentioning earlier... I'm kind of unsure what to do now too.

The situation is: I control all of Southern Italy except the city of Capua, which is owned by Pisa.  Speaking of Pisa, the Pisans have an enormous empire, and control Siracusa province in Sicily (got to it before I did  ), in addition to a huge chunk of the Mahgreb (i.e. all of Tunisia, coastal Algeria), most of Libya, Sardinia, and even some of the Spanish coast.  Nearly all of the rest of Spain has been reconquered, with just a few petty Muslim states left--the Almoravids still control Cadiz and there are some petty states on the coast around Valencia.

Because I didn't want to get 'left behind' in this amazingly-fast reconquista, I conquered the Balearic Islands and added them to my Sicilian empire, which makes my obvious next target Pisa since I'd love to drive them out of Capua and Sicily, and pick up Sardinia as well... but Pisa is so huge and fields such large armies I'm not exactly sure I can defeat them in a war.

[garbon]

Edit: A nice contrast to that is a game as Byzantium, where you have goals such as restoring the Roman empire or healing the schism - which is exactly the kind of thing lacking for other countries once you get beyond the point of creating an empire in your corner of the map. Decisions and plots to get your family and proteges elected to special positions such as Archishops (with papal investiture), Grand Masters or the Pope would be great.

Yeah, though the issue there is that the extra "goals" for Byzantines are basically like pure fantasy.  It'd be nice as you say to have those other sorts of things.