Crusader Kings 2 Redux

[Syt]

the Dark Age

And the Visigoths in Iberia were big on prosecuting Jews (and other non-Catholics) already in the 7th century.

[Faeelin]

Yeah kinda like Fae's point, Psellus.

Fae just irrationally hates Byzantium so he will trash talk and pull up any dirt he can.  I don't blame him, hanging out on the Paradox forums would probably have that impact on anybody.

What's irrational about it?  Part of it is probably a distrust of absolutism in general, and the Byzantines loved to pretend that their monarch was all powerful. When he wasn't being blinded in a palace coup. I don't think it's a surprise that I find the Italian and German city-states a hell of a lot more interesting.

[garbon]

What you described sounds awfully dull...

[Valmy]

What's irrational about it?  Part of it is probably a distrust of absolutism in general, and the Byzantines loved to pretend that their monarch was all powerful. When he wasn't being blinded in a palace coup. I don't think it's a surprise that I find the Italian and German city-states a hell of a lot more interesting.

Ok first it is a medieval monarchy and not a modern nation.  I don't think anybody but a few Paradox wierdos are in favor of many millenia old ideologies.  Secondly the absolute power of the Emperor was, like most medieval ideals, a matter of fiction.  It was useful to alot of interests to pretend the Monarch was all powerful.  German and Italian city states also had lots of ideals that were useful to pretend about.  Finally I find lots of things in this period less interesting than others but I tend not to lash out in rage against them for being less interesting

Relax my friend there are no Paradox nutters here. 

[Faeelin]

Who's angry?

[Martinus]

[Martinus]

Btw, has anyone else had a problem with DLCs on Steam? They show all as downloaded/purchased in the Steam Library, but when I start the game, the field where you normally choose the DLCs to activate is blank and I can't play the muslim rulers in CK2. I haven't noticed when it happened but couldn't have been long time ago (the field with mods is still active, btw).

Edit: And the DLCs used to work properly for a long time for me.

[garbon]

Look around for a fix, Steam-related bug has been reported.

[The Minsky Moment]

After the Isaurian, the Dark Age forced conversions mostly came to an end.  The relatively small remaining Jewish population lived mostly at peace, apart from the Crusades.    I think Byzantium was probably as safe a place to be Jewish in the Middle Ages as anywhere, except maybe Lithuania and Poland.

Yeah, forced conversions tend to get numbers down.
That's like saying after WW2 the German Jews didn't have it so bad.

[Queequeg]

Yeah, forced conversions tend to get numbers down.

I can't think of any massacres (not that there weren't any-my Late Antique history is a bit rusty), and the main reason Jews were targeted by the Isaurian is because they were associated with the Iconoclasts.  A Jewish-Christian sect called the  Melchisedechians kept most of the Mosaic laws and was considered part-Jewish, and were very firmly Iconoclast.   I can't think of any anti-Jewish violence (with the exception of forced conversions) by Byzantines in Byzantium after the impact of the Sack of Jerusalem by the Sassanids. 

Also, the Melchisedechians, a mysterious group that kept most of the Mosaic laws and was popularly associated with the Jews, were one of the most important groups in the Empire.  They were hugely important to the thematic forces in Anatolia. The Amorian dynasty had origins in the sect, and through Leo the Wise's questionable parentage the entire Macedonian Dynasty is likely descended from them.  I have a hard time imagining a Frankish King or an Arab ruler claiming patrilineal descent from pseudo-Ebionites.

I'm actually reasonably certain that Constantinople is the most consistently Jewish-friendly major European city of the last 1,000 years.  This only breaks in the 1920s, when the Kemalists tried to murder or exile everything interesting about Turkey.

That's like saying after WW2 the German Jews didn't have it so bad.

While I'll freely admit that the Caliphate was better for Jews during the Iconoclast controversy than the Byzantine Empire, the Caliphate was also just generally a better place to live.  Between Heraclitus and the death of Leo III, the Byzantines were throwing every solidus they had at trying to stop an Empire that was seven times wealthier, far more urbanized, and much, much larger, while simultaneously enduring a massive religious crisis.  You were also substantially more likely to be punished for painting the Virgin and Child than for being Jewish. I think it's likely-plausible even-that a large number of Jews that were not in one of the cities conquered by the Rashidun Caliphate would have moved there.  This is particularly likely when you consider the rapid de-urbanization of the Empire and the growth of the Jewish communities of Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad and Al-Andalus. 

Also, I think it is obvious that the fact that the nadirs of Byzantine-Jewish relations was persecution under Justinian, the inter-communal violence of the final war with the Sassanids (which went both ways, most famously in Jerusalem) and forced conversions under Leo the Isaurian is in a relative sense a point in Byzantium's favor.   I don't think I even have to contrast this with the horrors of Medieval Europe. 

[Martinus]

Every time I hear the English term "Mosaic law", I think of some ancient lawyers painstakingly creating a piece of legislation from tiny coloured stones. 

[Valmy]

Who's angry?

You are trash talking by calling it 'the Greek Kingdom' and mocking a woman who died a thousand years ago with an only marginally funny joke that you have already made because...why exactly?  They are a historical medieval monarchy not a football team.  'LOL you lost to da Venetians and they suk!!!11' is usually the sort of rhetoric used by people who talk trash because they are incapable of forming actual thoughts on a topic.

I find the Greek Kingdom stuff especially groan worthy since you were the guy eager to annoint every King in Western Europe an Emperor.  I was only trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you had been made irrationally furious by Paradox morons.

Edit: In fact you even said as much didn't you?  About how public opinion is that the Byzantine Empire was this great and awesome thing?  Public opinion here being Balkan Nationalist opinions from Paradoxtards.

[Valmy]

Yeah, forced conversions tend to get numbers down.
That's like saying after WW2 the German Jews didn't have it so bad.

Didn't the Germans just outlaw circumcision?

Also, I think it is obvious that the fact that the nadirs of Byzantine-Jewish relations was persecution under Justinian, the inter-communal violence of the final war with the Sassanids (which went both ways, most famously in Jerusalem) and forced conversions under Leo the Isaurian is in a relative sense a point in Byzantium's favor.

Um the Jews were provoked by Phocas' policies so while they were indeed hardly passive participants you cannot make it sound like it was some sort of equivalent situation.

I find it a little sketchy to applaud the Byzantines for their tolerance but at the same time Minsky's comparison to Hitler is absurd.  I mean they were a medieval christian monarchy context is important here people.

[Razgovory]

I sometimes use the term "medieval Greeks.  I sorta dislike the Byzantine since it's a bit archaic.  Roman empire is confusing cause at least two were claiming to be the Roman empire at the time (three if you want include the Sultanate of Rum), and Romania makes you think of the modern country.

[Valmy]

I sometimes use the term "medieval Greeks.  I sorta dislike the Byzantine since it's a bit archaic.  Roman empire is confusing cause at least two were claiming to be the Roman empire at the time (three if you want include the Sultanate of Rum), and Romania makes you think of the modern country.

Yeah there is no non-anachronistic term for them besides Romanoi which sounds like a term for Gypsies.