Crusader Kings 2 Redux

[Queequeg]

I think Kievan Rus' is, after Byzantium and Andalucia, probably a "romantic lost kingdom."  The Rus' had popular literacy, free labor, an economy based on river-trade, massively complex inheritance laws and in some cases a system similar to democracy.  Muscovy was basically the exact opposite of all of that.

[Martinus]

I think Kievan Rus' is, after Byzantium and Andalucia, probably a "romantic lost kingdom."  The Rus' had popular literacy, free labor, an economy based on river-trade, massively complex inheritance laws and in some cases a system similar to democracy.  Muscovy was basically the exact opposite of all of that.

LOL no.

[Martinus]

Spellus is obviously biased because of his Orthodox boner. There are at least three "romantic lost kingdoms" of European medieval era - Byzantium, Andalusia and Languedoc - that had an advance and unique artistic culture and were conquered by external invasion. Singling out Byzantium is kinda silly.

I love Occitania, but calling it a Medieval lost kingdom is a bit much.  There was also almost no Andalucian "Kingdom" thanks to the Tarifas and Berber invasions.

I'm using the word "kingdom" not in a political but in a cultural/romantic sense, the way Norman Davies used it in his book.

[Martinus]

I didn't know Langudoc was a Kingdom.  Or that it was conquered by external enemies.

Please reintroduce the ignore function.

[Razgovory]

You know, I wouldn't have to correct you if you stopped saying stupid things.  Also, I can't reintroduce functions to this board.  Besides, even when you ignored me, you kept reading my posts anyway.

[Queequeg]

I think Kievan Rus' is, after Byzantium and Andalucia, probably a "romantic lost kingdom."  The Rus' had popular literacy, free labor, an economy based on river-trade, massively complex inheritance laws and in some cases a system similar to democracy.  Muscovy was basically the exact opposite of all of that.

LOL no.

LOLONO what?

[Tamas]

I think Kievan Rus' is, after Byzantium and Andalucia, probably a "romantic lost kingdom."  The Rus' had popular literacy, free labor, an economy based on river-trade, massively complex inheritance laws and in some cases a system similar to democracy.  Muscovy was basically the exact opposite of all of that.

LOL no.

Just because the Polack hordes helped destroy it, it doesn't mean it wasn't superior to Poland :p

[Faeelin]

I think they're kind of opposites.  Rushd was the last great Arab of al-Andalus and one of the precious few great Arab scholars.  He was already fighting a losing war against the rising tide of Islamic puritanism that would ultimately succeed at destroying everything worthwhile in the religion.  His spirit of innovation and individualism has something in common with the scientists and philosophers of the Renaissance.

One of the few great scholars of the Arab World? I'd agree with you that the Muslim states didn't produce much after him, but the rest of your statement puzzles me.

Byzantine commanders based records of their campaign on Xenephon when Rushd's Almohad benefactors were pogrom-happy fanatics. 

Ya know, Maimonides was expelled from Al-Andalus by the Almohads but I can't think of any Jewish thinkers from the Byzantine world.

Also, Faelin, pretty sure you are smart enough to realize that there's a great deal of bias in the popular opinion on Byzantium.

To the extent there's a popular opinion on a Greek kindgom that by this point covered the shores of the Aegean, I think people view it as this glorious bulwark of the west, holding the line against the Muslim Hordes.

I mean, we've got people masterbating on the EU4 forum and claiming the Empire could've held on after Varna, while people make mods where they can become a Roman Empire with cores across Egypt and Italy. What?

Why did the rus lose literacy, anyway?

[Razgovory]

Asian guys on little ponies showed up.

[Queequeg]

Just because the Polack hordes helped destroy it, it doesn't mean it wasn't superior to Poland :p

Lithuanians are not Poles. 

Why did the rus lose literacy, anyway?

Almost all of the cities and monasteries were annihilated.  The twin hits of the Mongol conquest and the Plague left most of Rus' underpopulated, and almost all of the historical centers of Russian civilization were still under occupation during the early days of Muscovy.  Also, the trade links with the Black Sea were cut off, replaced with increasingly intense slave raids.  Muscovy had no interest in a large literate class of merchants or free peasants. 

Ya know, Maimonides was expelled from Al-Andalus by the Almohads but I can't think of any Jewish thinkers from the Byzantine world.

Weren't Jews something like over 1/10th of the Iberian population?  I don't think there were that many Byzantine Jews. 

To the extent there's a popular opinion on a Greek kindgom that by this point covered the shores of the Aegean, I think people view it as this glorious bulwark of the west, holding the line against the Muslim Hordes.

Mass exodus of scholars to Italy was important.  I think that's generally accepted.  Greek became a language of the educated once again. 

One of the few great scholars of the Arab World? I'd agree with you that the Muslim states didn't produce much after him, but the rest of your statement puzzles me.

I don't think there was much left in Andalucian culture after Ibn Rushd.  Conversely, I think a lot of the great scholarship and art of the Byzantines was suppressed by the Ottoman conquest, not to mention the Crusades. 

I mean, we've got people masterbating on the EU4 forum and claiming the Empire could've held on after Varna, while people make mods where they can become a Roman Empire with cores across Egypt and Italy. What?

"We"=Paradox community.  Just because you are a member of a tiny community where Byzantium is, if anything, overrated does not mean you should hold it against it.

[The Minsky Moment]

Weren't Jews something like over 1/10th of the Iberian population?  I don't think there were that many Byzantine Jews. 

How convenient.

Perhaps it's worthwhile reflecting how it came to be that Jews came to be 10% of the Iberian population yet at the same time there were not many Byzantine Jews, despite the proximity of traditional Jewish settlement areas to Byzantium.

[garbon]

Weren't Jews something like over 1/10th of the Iberian population?  I don't think there were that many Byzantine Jews. 

How convenient.

Perhaps it's worthwhile reflecting how it came to be that Jews came to be 10% of the Iberian population yet at the same time there were not many Byzantine Jews, despite the proximity of traditional Jewish settlement areas to Byzantium.

Yeah kinda like Fae's point, Psellus.

[Queequeg]

After the Isaurian, the Dark Age forced conversions mostly came to an end.  The relatively small remaining Jewish population lived mostly at peace, apart from the Crusades.    I think Byzantium was probably as safe a place to be Jewish in the Middle Ages as anywhere, except maybe Lithuania and Poland. Particularly true after the Christians and Muslims of Spain seemed to simultaneously decided to start hating everyone. 

Granted, it seems strange to me that the traditional Jewish settlements of Asia Minor appear to have dwindled down to the thousands by the time of the Medieval Empire, but I don't think there is a lot of evidence for religious violence in the Empire during this period. 

This is actually a really interesting question, one I had not really thought of before. 

[Valmy]

How convenient.

Perhaps it's worthwhile reflecting how it came to be that Jews came to be 10% of the Iberian population yet at the same time there were not many Byzantine Jews, despite the proximity of traditional Jewish settlement areas to Byzantium.

Well the Arabs basically copied the Byzantine Jew laws in how they handled Christians and Jews didn't they?

Phocas going full retard with one of the worst timed Jew persecutions in history was one of the primary reasons he ran the Empire into the ground so quickly (Well that and Byzantium's remarkable and entertaining ability to be always under attack on every border) but before that I was under the impression the Emperors were constantly attacked by Christian fanatics, like Saint Simon on the Pillar, for being too tolerant of Jews.  As to why there were not huge numbers of Jews in Byzantine territory following the defeat to the Arabs is an interesting question and since it sounds like you know something with how you phrased that.

[Valmy]

Yeah kinda like Fae's point, Psellus.

Fae just irrationally hates Byzantium so he will trash talk and pull up any dirt he can.  I don't blame him, hanging out on the Paradox forums would probably have that impact on anybody.