Crusader Kings 2 Redux

[Faeelin]

Looks like the next DLC will be Byzantine: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?625933-Next-DLC-title-leaked.

[garbon]

Yeah we've beendiscussing that for the last several pages. 

[Faeelin]

Yeah we've beendiscussing that for the last several pages. 

.... Honestly, I just assumed it was one of the Byzantine discussions that pop in any number of threads around here.

I'm going to go drink now.

[Faeelin]

For the later periods, in particular the period where it lingers on into EU, of course it's destruction is all but assured - which is what makes it such an interesting and challenging nation to play.   Grenada has a similar dynamic to it.

I am pretty confident there is not the tenth of the interest in Grenada that there is in Byzantium, though.

[Queequeg]

For the later periods, in particular the period where it lingers on into EU, of course it's destruction is all but assured - which is what makes it such an interesting and challenging nation to play.   Grenada has a similar dynamic to it.

I am pretty confident there is not the tenth of the interest in Grenada that there is in Byzantium, though.

I don't think they were as distinctive from the Maghreb as Byzantium was from the West, and the Grenadans just didn't have the same kind of cultural inheritance as the Byzantines. 

[Razgovory]

Perhaps that's just a Western perspective.  The Arabs seem to pine for lost Andalusia quite a bit.

[Valmy]

I am pretty confident there is not the tenth of the interest in Grenada that there is in Byzantium, though.

If you say so.  Andalusia is sort of the Muslims Byzantium.

[Valmy]

Yeah we've beendiscussing that for the last several pages. 

.... Honestly, I just assumed it was one of the Byzantine discussions that pop in any number of threads around here.

I'm going to go drink now.

You got your Timmeh-esque faux Empires I figured you would be happy.

Anyway I hope this will be focussed on all Eastern Christians not just Byzantium.  The Arab and African Christians could use work.

[Queequeg]

Perhaps that's just a Western perspective.  The Arabs seem to pine for lost Andalusia quite a bit.

They're Muslims.  Losing Dar el-Islam to the Infidels isn't acceptable.   

[Faeelin]

I don't think they were as distinctive from the Maghreb as Byzantium was from the West, and the Grenadans just didn't have the same kind of cultural inheritance as the Byzantines.

Hrm. I wonder how much of that is simply because it's not something anyone in the west talks about. Going back earlier, I'd push Ibn Rushd up against anyone I can think of from the Byzantine world.

I guess part of it is that I've never found the Byzantine Empire, especially the medieval empire, that great. Yes, Anna, you think the Franks are barbarians who smell. Too bad your society seems to excel only at having its capital sacked by a blind octogenarian.

[Queequeg]

Just because the Angeloi and the Doukas were two of the worst families in the entire history of political dynasties does not mean they are all shit.   

Also, tons of people were tricked by Walder Frey Enrico Dandolo.  He was a tricky son of a bitch.

Going back earlier, I'd push Ibn Rushd up against anyone I can think of from the Byzantine world.

I think they're kind of opposites.  Rushd was the last great Arab of al-Andalus and one of the precious few great Arab scholars.  He was already fighting a losing war against the rising tide of Islamic puritanism that would ultimately succeed at destroying everything worthwhile in the religion.  His spirit of innovation and individualism has something in common with the scientists and philosophers of the Renaissance.

The revival of the classics in the Byzantine Empire, however, is far more directly responsible for the Classical content that inspired the actual Renaissance.  Psellus could argue the finest details of Parmenidies when there was barely a fragment of a poorly translated Latin text of the entire Platonic corpus in the West.  Byzantine commanders based records of their campaign on Xenephon when Rushd's Almohad benefactors were pogrom-happy fanatics. 

Also, Faelin, pretty sure you are smart enough to realize that there's a great deal of bias in the popular opinion on Byzantium.  The Byzantines held Classical culture above their own-something Western scholars and the Ottoman Turks all agreed on.   One of the most frustrating or tragic elements of Byzantine history for me is that the Medieval Empire is probably best described as Renaissance, Interrupted.  By the rise of the Ottomans, three centuries of scholarship had produced some very interesting works of art, and a radically different mentality than that of Catholic and Muslim fanatics.

Also, there are actually some pretty great secular, often vernacular works of Byzantine literature that were effectively lost over the centuries-Belthandros and Chrysantza is actually pretty neat.  If it doesn't hold up to The Iliad, it's worth pointing out that almost nothing does. 

[Razgovory]

Just because the Angeloi and the Doukas were two of the worst families in the entire history of political dynasties does not mean they are all shit.   

Also, tons of people were tricked by Walder Frey Enrico Dandolo.  He was a tricky son of a bitch.

Well the Venetians had the right to unhappy.  You know, after the Greeks just slaughtered every Italian they could find.

[Martinus]

Spellus is obviously biased because of his Orthodox boner. There are at least three "romantic lost kingdoms" of European medieval era - Byzantium, Andalusia and Languedoc - that had an advance and unique artistic culture and were conquered by external invasion. Singling out Byzantium is kinda silly.

[Razgovory]

I didn't know Langudoc was a Kingdom.  Or that it was conquered by external enemies.

[Queequeg]

Spellus is obviously biased because of his Orthodox boner. There are at least three "romantic lost kingdoms" of European medieval era - Byzantium, Andalusia and Languedoc - that had an advance and unique artistic culture and were conquered by external invasion. Singling out Byzantium is kinda silly.

I love Occitania, but calling it a Medieval lost kingdom is a bit much.  There was also almost no Andalucian "Kingdom" thanks to the Tarifas and Berber invasions.