Crusader Kings 2 Redux

[garbon]

Timur did kinda conquer but then with little interest for the region, it sort of flitted away.

[Viking]

Timur did kinda conquer but then with little interest for the region, it sort of flitted away.

I think the single most important fact about Timur is that he never really rule any place much more than a days ride from his yurt. He didn't so much rule as convince everybody that the only way to avoid being killed was to have Timur's tribute ready when he next demanded it. He had little interest in any region.

[garbon]

Well I was also thinking of his progeny who settled down a bit.

[Queequeg]

hittites - locals, founded the local civilization

Assyrian trade colonies were the first civilized civilized (meaning literate) people in the area.  The Hittites were warrior pastoralist Indo-European interlopers who adopted the name of the people of the region, the Hatti. 

With Anatolia and the Fertile Crescent, it's generally best to avoid using term "locals" as you are using it here.  The archaeology goes back far enough that not even the Sumerians are totally autochthonous. 

cimmerians-skythians - raiders from beyond the black sea

Substantial settlements south of the Caucasus in Caucasian Albania and Armenia, substantial influence on the culture of Eastern Anatolia.

thracians-armenians - how the fuck do these guys get hyphenated together smelly balkan sheepstealers get associated with a post bronze age collapse civ?

Armenians are most likely descended from Thracians or other Balkan Indo-European peoples who migrated east during the collapse of Urartu.  The language bears a real resemblance to Bronze Age Balkan languages, among them Greek and Thracian. 

Parthians - by the time they got that far they were civilized

I don't think the Parthians were ever civilized when compared to the Sassanids or the Seleucids.  Their influence on Armenia/Eastern Anatolia was extreme.  Parthianisms in Armenian are roughly equivalent to Norman and French terms in English-lot of government, commerce and war related vocabulary. 

Sassanids - by the time they got that far they were civilized (and probably started civilized)

They had most of Armenia, but yeah were civilized by any definition.

huns-epthalites - raiders not conquerors

Substantial, devastating raids that could have fairly easily turned in to conquest if not for strength of the Sassanids, Byzantines and local Armenians. 

arabs - failed invaders

Since when is three centuries failure? 

mongols - tamerlaine wasn't a conqueror

The man emptied the Armenian plateau.  Hundreds of thousands slaughtered.  Sounds like a conqueror.

safavids - didn't conquer

They were of mixed Kurdish-Turkic origin and their first base of power was in the Armenian Plateau.  They had a continuous relationship with rebellious Turcoman tribes in the Ottoman Empire, and were on friendlier terms with most of Anatolia than the Ottomans were-look at the Sahkulu rebellion. 

In retrospect, my initial post was misleading.  I think Conquest in Anatolia is relative.  The same basic elements have almost always been there, there's just an occasional change in exact composition.  I think this is in large part a result of the fact that they've had just about every ethnic group in Eurasia try to claim a part of the region at some point in history. People adapt to being conquered.

[Viking]

OK, it seems the difference seems to be that I think conquest means you keep the land and what you consider the western end of Anatolia I consider the eastern end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia

When you say anatolia I think "the land bounded by the black, agean, med seas and the euphrates". You apparently mean "modern kurdistan, georgia, armenia and azerbaidjan".

[Queequeg]

I include those, rather.  I think the Armenian highland has always been considered part of Anatolia. 

[Viking]

Well, anyway. The region I thought we were talking about had 4 owners in the almost 2000 years before Manzakiert (if you count the Macs as 1). That makes it the most politically stable place on earth for that period. With the exception of a few quick foreign conquests (Cyrus, Alexander and Pompey) and civil wars the place is remarkably un-invaded and un-pillaged and un-conquered. That is what makes the gothic raids of the 4th century so shocking and successful. I would have to argue that anatolia (as I see it) is the least invaded and conquered place on the planet for the 1600 years before Manzakiert.

[Valmy]

I disagree. They should lose the initial war under extreme circumstances only, like the Byzantine Emperor is captured in battle (hence, immediate -100% warscore). I see this in game from time to time, which is fair. After all, Mantzikert and the war thereafter were an exceptional circumstance. This said, the struggle for Anatolia and Armenia should continue in a balanced way after the initial war as it had been for centuries.

The Byzantines have been already nerfed enough; Anatolia has too few holdings for being among the richest areas in the planet at that time. I would re-buff them (Varangian Guard included) a little bit, as well as symmetrically I would give more power to the Seljuks, to make them both able to crush the then decaying Fatimids.

Dear Hod

[Martinus]

Hopefully the dlc after that makes the hre more powerful.

Actually, the Legacy of Rome could cover any (or all) of (i) Byzantium, (ii) Holy Roman Empire, (iii) Papacy, and (iv) Orthodox Patriarchate.

[Martinus]

My troll in the Paradox thread:

I love how some people call the Holy Roman Empire to be neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire, but then in the same breath cheerish the abortion that was Byzantium (or, even less, Russia) as the "second" and "third" Rome.

At least the HRE kept some nominal connection to the actual city of Rome - for Constantinople and Moscow the claims to Roman legacy were nothing but empty pretences.

[Razgovory]

Ooh, how brave of you Marty!  We are dumbstruck by your cleverness and panache.

[garbon]

What's sad is that he is getting people to respond...but not surprising on p'dox.

[Razgovory]

What's sad is that he is getting people to respond...but not surprising on p'dox.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

[Ed Anger]

What's sad is that he is getting people to respond...but not surprising on p'dox.

In the land of the blind the brown eyed man is king.

fyp.

[The Brain]

sha la la la la la la la la la la te da