Hungarian Politics

[Valmy]

Well Hungary did have some pretty serious issues from 1945-1989...

That was different. I am talking about 1919-1940 and 1989-Present.

[Barrister]

Well Hungary did have some pretty serious issues from 1945-1989...

That was different. I am talking about 1919-1940 and 1989-Present.

Yeah, about that.  Hungary wasn't exactly a bastion of democracy and freedom from 1919-1940.  I mean they were allied with Hitler...

[Valmy]

Well Hungary did have some pretty serious issues from 1945-1989...

That was different. I am talking about 1919-1940 and 1989-Present.

Yeah, about that.  Hungary wasn't exactly a bastion of democracy and freedom from 1919-1940.  I mean they were allied with Hitler...

Hungary allied with Hitler in November of 1940, which is why I used 1940 as the real end of their first stint of independence.

And no, they were very much not a bastion of freedom and democracy from 1919-1940. Which is precisely my point.

[Tamas]

I don't see any shift of any kind. The same kind of quasi-feudal system kept adopting to changing circumstances.

[Tamas]

Last night scenes are repeating, except the police's patience is much less. The moment some of the crowd gets next to them they spray a wide field of tear gas. If they thought this would calm people down they were mistaken.

[Valmy]

I don't see any shift of any kind. The same kind of quasi-feudal system kept adopting to changing circumstances.

Perhaps. They were just always held up as this beacon for limiting central authority and so many of their greatest national heroes, in the 19th century anyway, were all about championing liberal values. That seems hard to reconcile with how things have gone since the end of the Habsburg Empire...or maybe not I guess if you just view the whole deal through nationalistic terms with the Hungarians just resisting German control rather than any further ideological reflection.

[The Brain]

Wait what. V's post wasn't sarcastic? Now I'm confused.

[Tamas]

I don't see any shift of any kind. The same kind of quasi-feudal system kept adopting to changing circumstances.

Perhaps. They were just always held up as this beacon for limiting central authority and so many of their greatest national heroes, in the 19th century anyway, were all about championing liberal values. That seems hard to reconcile with how things have gone since the end of the Habsburg Empire...or maybe not I guess if you just view the whole deal through nationalistic terms with the Hungarians just resisting German control rather than any further ideological reflection.

It's... Hungary, like the rest of Eastern Europe, has never had a real, strong middle class. In March of 1848 the replacement for that middle class, the educated urban youth led a revolution that, thanks to Habsburg mismanagement, escalated into the revolutionary war. But there were major disagreements on what to do with it, mainly between the more realists who sought compromise with the Habsburgs after victory, establishing the constitutional liberal monarchy that briefly existed between March and April (when Vienna was in unrest). The others wanted independence. The personified pestilence that was the leader of the country, Kossuth, was with the latter, especially as he envisioned himself leading that country. Rest is history.

[Syt]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/13/hungary-complains-brexit-will-leave-it-outnumbered-in-eu

Hungary complains Brexit will leave it outnumbered in EU

Foreign minister Péter Szijjártó says Britain brought 'common sense' to debate on migration

Hungary's hardline anti-immigrant government has expressed disappointment at the loss of Britain's "common sense" from the EU immigration debate.

Its foreign minister said the UK leaving was "worst possible scenario for us" because "our preference would have been for Britain to stay in and migrants to stay out".

In an interview with the Guardian in Manchester, where he was opening a new consulate general for the estimated 70,000 Hungarians now living in the north of England, Péter Szijjártó said without the UK, Hungary — "not part of the mainstream in Europe" — will be even more outnumbered than it already is. "With you leaving there will be an imbalance in the political debate about the future of Europe," he said.

"The British always represented positions based on common sense, just like we did," he claimed. "Common sense when it comes to economy and security and you had a very pragmatic approach when it was about the major challenges ahead of the European Union – based on sovereignty, role of national parliaments and so on and so forth.

"So with you leaving, this political debate about the future of the EU will be unbalanced in an unfavourable way from our perspective."

Szijjártó defended Hungary's decision to build a hard border to stop illegal migrants coming from the Middle East and Africa, and its new law that punishes anyone found to be helping asylum seekers.

"If you look back over the past three and a half years, you will see that illegal migration is definitely the cause of security threats," he said. "No question.

"If 1.5m people are allowed to enter Europe without any sort of control and any sort of check then it definitely gives the opportunity for people with bad will to come. And it definitely offers the opportunity for terrorist organisations to send their troops and activists."

However, many of the terrorists responsible for the worst European attacks in recent years are "homegrown". Chérif Chekatt, who is being hunted by police in connection for the latest attacks in Strasbourg, was born there in 1989. Most of the men behind the Paris attacks of 2015 which left 130 dead were born in Belgium or France, though two were from Iraq. Salman Abedi, the Manchester Arena bomber, was born in Manchester.

Szijjártó said he sympathised with the UK over what he said was its harsh treatment by the EU since the 2016 referendum. "In the beginning at least, I did feel a kind of willingness for revenge on behalf of some bureaucrats in Brussels, to show the British that they have made the worst possible decision of their whole life," he said.

Such bureaucrats, he said, were the same ones who "usually criticise us very heavily and make accusations against Hungary".

European Union lawmakers this year debated whether to sanction Budapest for allegedly undermining the bloc's values on issues such as migration after a report accused Hungary of violating "the fundamental rights of migrants, asylum seekers and refugees".

But Szijjártó insisted it was not hypocritical for Hungary to operate such a harsh immigration policy while also offering political asylum to Nikola Gruevski, the former prime minister of Macedonia, who fled the country last month rather than report to jail to serve a two-and-a-half-year sentence for corruption.

Albanian police said Gruevski "exited Albanian territory on 11 November as a passenger in a car owned by the embassy of Hungary".

But Szijjártó categorically denied that the Hungarian foreign ministry or intelligence service helped him cross the border and insisted the Macedonian fugitive entered Hungary legally: "Gruevski travelled with proper documentation."

Newsflash for Hungary's foreign minister: when UK politicians talk about keeping immigrants out ... that includes you.

[Tamas]

 

Szijjarto is one of the most useless human beings ever to hold political office. The last time he had an independent thought was when he met Orban while in high school and decided he wanted to work for that man. His only task and purpose since then has been to jump in front of cameras and play the fool while sinister things are done behind him.

[Tamas]

Predictably the government's public interpretation of the protests is that paid agents of Soros are wreaking havoc during sacred Christmas period to discredit Hungary on the internation scene.

In parallel to this, their propagandists on TVs praise the French yellow-jacket rioters for sticking it up to the Soros-ist French police.

[Syt]

German media said that Jobbik had called to support the protests, and that their flags were seen at the protests?

[Tamas]

German media said that Jobbik had called to support the protests, and that their flags were seen at the protests?

There were 3 party flags, Jobbik, the Socialists, and Parbeszed which is a tiny left-center party barely in Parliament. The Jobbik "call" is being blown out of proportion, their guy said it on live stream in the heat of the altercation with the police, when one of their female activist was being overwhelmed by the brave riot police and pulled behind police line to be arrested.

Hard to see where Jobbik is at the moment and what weight they still punch. A bunch of their radical radicals cededed and formed a party with seemingly the only concern to be His Majesty's Opposition. They are indistinguishable from the governing party and indeed haven't been heard critising them even once.

Meanwhile Jobbik's attempted switch to the center has clearly failed. Nobody non-nationalist really trusts them, and all the rabid dogs have deserted them for Fidesz. So what remains are people who are too bigotted/nationalistic to pull toward the left, but not dumb/rabid enough to support Fidesz, AND hasn't retreated from politics entirely. That's not a lot of people.

[Tamas]

The only larger group in Hungary who can be counted on to be in the frontline of any physical confrontation are the football hooligans (who also happen to be security guards usually). It was thanks to them that similar protests in 2006 escalated rapidly.

Those people are, however, firmly on Fidesz' side and their more organised groups have been employed as muscle by the party on multiple occassions since 2010, where the police could not be counted on to use force, but could be counted on to look the other way while those guys would bar the entrance to the election authority's office or beat up an uppity hippy leader.

[Tamas]

Somewhat bigger demonstration going on tonight. The crowd (a few thousand people) eventually gathered in front of the state TV HQ. The handful of opposition MPs with them entered (after brief uncertainty the riot police let them in) to have their demands read in.

Jobbik and the different leftist parties are there together. Which is a welcome sight. I do not wish to see Jobbik anywhere close to actual power, but that's something to worry about once the current fascist regime has been ousted.