When Did the ME Go Wrong?

[Queequeg]

Well to be fair by the time the Mongols showed up Baghdad was not what it once was.

That's true but in the intervening 200 or so years Baghdad had hugely worn down by Seljuk Turks ruling in the name of the Abbasid Caliph under their protection.  Again, the same Central Asian dominance that removed Arabs from power.

The Seljuks hadn't been in the area of Mesopotamia for a century by the time of the Mongols, and before that they' fractured into the Great and Rum Seljuks. 

Also, Sheilbh, wouldn't the rise of the fanatical Berbers in the Islamic West be analogous to the rise of the Turks?

[Valmy]

The destruction of the Ottoman Empire, and the imposition of colonial rule.

Um...I think things were already pretty sucky before 1919.

[Queequeg]

The destruction of the Ottoman Empire, and the imposition of colonial rule.

Um...I think things were already pretty sucky before 1919.

Actually this is debatable.  The ME would have been quite a bit wealthier than East Asia in the immediate Post-War.  Turkey was a lot, lot wealthier than South Korea up until the 1960s, IIRC.

[Valmy]

Actually this is debatable.  The ME would have been quite a bit wealthier than East Asia in the immediate Post-War.  Turkey was a lot, lot wealthier than South Korea up until the 1960s, IIRC.

If things were so great how come the Arabs hated the Turks so much?

And being wealthier than Korea, savaged by war and colonial tyranny, is not exactly a thing to hang your hat on.  Neither is being wealthier than East Asia in 1920 unless you mean that the ME was wealthier than Japan.

[Faeelin]

The destruction of the Ottoman Empire, and the imposition of colonial rule.

Um...I think things were already pretty sucky before 1919.

Well yea, but were they really much suckier than in Russia, or China?

[Faeelin]

Actually this is debatable.  The ME would have been quite a bit wealthier than East Asia in the immediate Post-War.  Turkey was a lot, lot wealthier than South Korea up until the 1960s, IIRC.

If things were so great how come the Arabs hated the Turks so much?

A few reasons; the Young Turks were, well, crazy; but I don't think they'd have lasted. Moreover, you can't associate what the Hashemites did with the rest of the Empire's Arabs.

[Queequeg]

Actually this is debatable.  The ME would have been quite a bit wealthier than East Asia in the immediate Post-War.  Turkey was a lot, lot wealthier than South Korea up until the 1960s, IIRC.

If things were so great how come the Arabs hated the Turks so much?

The same reason South Korea hated China and Japan?

[Valmy]

The same reason South Korea hated China and Japan?

I hardly think the rule of the Ottomans, who had ruled the area for five hundred years and were recognized as the leaders of the Islamic world, can really be compared to the brutal and dehumanizing rule of the Japanese in Korea.

Give me more details.  I understood the ME was pretty impoverished, particularly Mesopotamia in the 19th century.

[Queequeg]

Actually this is debatable.  The ME would have been quite a bit wealthier than East Asia in the immediate Post-War.  Turkey was a lot, lot wealthier than South Korea up until the 1960s, IIRC.

If things were so great how come the Arabs hated the Turks so much?

A few reasons; the Young Turks were, well, crazy;

QFT.  Fascism and similar Totalitarian ideologies were the dominant ideologies throughout the Middle-East for the better part of the 20th Century in the entire area.  That was as big (probably a bigger) problem in the recent history of the middle east than anything that happened 200+ years ago.

[Valmy]

Well yea, but were they really much suckier than in Russia, or China?

Yeah and both of those countries were in the midst of bloody revolutions and upheaval.

[Legbiter]

When did the Middle East go wrong?

From 634 and onward.

[Valmy]

A few reasons; the Young Turks were, well, crazy; but I don't think they'd have lasted. Moreover, you can't associate what the Hashemites did with the rest of the Empire's Arabs.

They were pretty prone to desertion while fighting in the Ottoman Army IIRC.

But yeah between Abdul Hamid II and then the Young Turks the Ottoman Empire had seen better times.

[Valmy]

QFT.  Fascism and similar Totalitarian ideologies were the dominant ideologies throughout the Middle-East for the better part of the 20th Century in the entire area.  That was as big (probably a bigger) problem in the recent history of the middle east than anything that happened 200+ years ago.

Any speculation as why that would be?

[Sheilbh]

One thing that baffled me was where the obsession with thought and belief purity on the part of the Muslims in Spain come from?  I mean history goes on and on about the Golden age of Spain was the tolerance of different beliefs and then suddenly you have things like the massacre of the Jews of Grenada and the strict enforcement of Islamic law and so forth.  Shortly after that the Christians start gaining serious momentum as the Jews switch sides.

Well it was broadly true within the context of the Medieval world that al-Andalus was more widely tolerant than any other part of Europe.  But we shouldn't confuse tolerance with equality, non-Muslims had less rights and paid different taxes, but they were tolerated.   What's more during the period of the continuation of the Umayad Caliphate I believe they were relatively protected this is the period of the Cordoba Caliphate and this, early period, is what most people talk about when they describe the tolerance.

The pogroms that took place in Iberia took place under two dynasties.  In this case the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties, who were Berbers.  The latter threatened death, exile or conversion on Jews and Christians.  I believe the basis of the Granada pogrom was a powerful Jewish vizier.  The Sultan was away and a mob stormed the palace, killed the vizier and then murdered Jews in the city.  Maimonedes, of course, also had to leave al Andalus.

But the fact remains that of the estimated 250,000 Jews in Iberia in 1492 100,000 were in the remnants of al Andalus and 50,000 in Granada itself.

[Valmy]

But the fact remains that of the estimated 250,000 Jews in Iberia in 1492 100,000 were in the remnants of al Andalus and 50,000 in Granada itself.

I think by 1492 the Jews had been suffering persecution and went back over to the Muslim side.