TV/Movies Megathread

[Duque de Bragança]

Good one Brain, same goes for Pale Rider.
Unforgiven was recently re-released in 4K, so some people love it.

[Eddie Teach]

Zootopia. A bunny wants to become a cop. Cute movie.

[celedhring]

Unforgiven and Dances with Wolves are decadent/revisionist westerns. Bone Tomahawk by definition doesn't count since it mixes genres.

What I'm looking for here is a Western that doesn't reflect on the decadence of the genre (like Unforgiven or Wild Bunch) or tries to turn its tropes around or whatever. A film that just follows the classic formulas. I'm asking this because Hollywood still churns out pretty straightforward genre films (rom-coms, horror, romance, etc...) but for some reason it can't make Westerns unless they put some revisionist spin on them. Even the True Grit remake has that ending with Rooster Cogburn reduced to a Wild West show attraction, and dying alone, while the original had a very upbeat ending. I think it tells something about the place of the Old West - and the values it represented - in current American mythology vs the golden days of the genre.

Pale Rider does definitely count though. Classic "stranger comes to town threatened by bandits" as they come. Dunno why I forgot that one, since it's one of my favorites.

I suppose Tombstone counts too, but that's a crap film 

[The Larch]

What about The Revenant? Or the remake of The Magnificent Seven? I guess both of Tarantino's westerns are subversions of the genre as well.

If you allow for comedic films, you have Wild Wild West or Maverick, but they're not "pure" westerns, I guess.

In TV you have Deadwood, Hell on Wheels, maybe that's more like what you're looking for.

But yeah, the "Old West" setting is too 50s for this day and age, I guess.

[celedhring]

What about The Revenant? Or the remake of The Magnificent Seven? I guess both of Tarantino's westerns are subversions of the genre as well.

If you allow for comedic films, you have Wild Wild West or Maverick, but they're not "pure" westerns, I guess.

In TV you have Deadwood, Hell on Wheels, maybe that's more like what you're looking for.

But yeah, the "Old West" setting is too 50s for this day and age, I guess.

I'm with Yi on this, I don't think Revenant is a Western. And if it is, it's certainly an exceedingly revisionist one.

The Magnificent Seven is probably as classic as we're gonna get in current Hollywood, though. Heroic gunmen defend town from dastardly bandits - that's the quintessential western plot, and they play it quite straight-forward.

Heck, the original probably has more wrinkles in it with that whole message about the age of gunmen coming to an end and the villagers being the future of the nation.

[11B4V]

What about The Revenant? Or the remake of The Magnificent Seven? I guess both of Tarantino's westerns are subversions of the genre as well.

If you allow for comedic films, you have Wild Wild West or Maverick, but they're not "pure" westerns, I guess.

In TV you have Deadwood, Hell on Wheels, maybe that's more like what you're looking for.

But yeah, the "Old West" setting is too 50s for this day and age, I guess.

Outmoded, romanticized and stereo typical. They don't match GBU, OUTITW, Open Range, Appoaloosa, Unforgiven, Broken Tail, Lonesome Dove, Deadwood, Hell on Wheels, The Proposition, etc.

If you include the Revenant, you need to include Jerimiah Johnson, The Mountain Men, etc. Though I don't consider any of them Westerns.

[11B4V]

The Magnificent Seven is nothing more than a retelling/reimage of Seven Samurai.

[11B4V]

Unforgiven and Dances with Wolves are decadent/revisionist westerns. Bone Tomahawk by definition doesn't count since it mixes genres.

What I'm looking for here is a Western that doesn't reflect on the decadence of the genre (like Unforgiven or Wild Bunch) or tries to turn its tropes around or whatever. A film that just follows the classic formulas. I'm asking this because Hollywood still churns out pretty straightforward genre films (rom-coms, horror, romance, etc...) but for some reason it can't make Westerns unless they put some revisionist spin on them. Even the True Grit remake has that ending with Rooster Cogburn reduced to a Wild West show attraction, and dying alone, while the original had a very upbeat ending. I think it tells something about the place of the Old West - and the values it represented - in current American mythology vs the golden days of the genre.

Pale Rider does definitely count though. Classic "stranger comes to town threatened by bandits" as they come. Dunno why I forgot that one, since it's one of my favorites.

I suppose Tombstone counts too, but that's a crap film 

The ending in the 2010 version reflects the book.

Also reading actual accounts of some of the more famous Old West figures of course doesn't match Hollywood's inaccurate romanticized portrayals. So, revisionist FTW for a more accurate portrayal of reality.

Lesser know figures; Dallas Stoudenmire, Frank Canton, Elfego Baca, Tom Horn have fascinating stories

[Admiral Yi]

Unforgiven and Dances with Wolves are decadent/revisionist westerns. Bone Tomahawk by definition doesn't count since it mixes genres.

What I'm looking for here is a Western that doesn't reflect on the decadence of the genre (like Unforgiven or Wild Bunch) or tries to turn its tropes around or whatever. A film that just follows the classic formulas. I'm asking this because Hollywood still churns out pretty straightforward genre films (rom-coms, horror, romance, etc...) but for some reason it can't make Westerns unless they put some revisionist spin on them. Even the True Grit remake has that ending with Rooster Cogburn reduced to a Wild West show attraction, and dying alone, while the original had a very upbeat ending. I think it tells something about the place of the Old West - and the values it represented - in current American mythology vs the golden days of the genre.

Pale Rider does definitely count though. Classic "stranger comes to town threatened by bandits" as they come. Dunno why I forgot that one, since it's one of my favorites.

I suppose Tombstone counts too, but that's a crap film 

3:10 to Yuma and Open Range. 

I don't get why you don't like Tombstone.  I think it's ossum.

[11B4V]

Unforgiven and Dances with Wolves are decadent/revisionist westerns. Bone Tomahawk by definition doesn't count since it mixes genres.

What I'm looking for here is a Western that doesn't reflect on the decadence of the genre (like Unforgiven or Wild Bunch) or tries to turn its tropes around or whatever. A film that just follows the classic formulas. I'm asking this because Hollywood still churns out pretty straightforward genre films (rom-coms, horror, romance, etc...) but for some reason it can't make Westerns unless they put some revisionist spin on them. Even the True Grit remake has that ending with Rooster Cogburn reduced to a Wild West show attraction, and dying alone, while the original had a very upbeat ending. I think it tells something about the place of the Old West - and the values it represented - in current American mythology vs the golden days of the genre.

Pale Rider does definitely count though. Classic "stranger comes to town threatened by bandits" as they come. Dunno why I forgot that one, since it's one of my favorites.

I suppose Tombstone counts too, but that's a crap film 

3:10 to Yuma and Open Range. 

I don't get why you don't like Tombstone.  I think it's ossum.

Ahh forgot 3:10

[Admiral Yi]

Celery: maybe you should break down your fancy film school decadence/revisionsim for us groundlings.

Does it mean no moral ambiguity?  Does it mean traditional good guys and bad guys have to be good guys and bad guys?

[The Brain]

Why indeed did they stop making genuine 1950s westerns after the 1950s?

[celedhring]

I usually explain revisionism as "film thinking about film". I.e. retelling an established narrative by deliberately altering some of its perceived defining characteristics (tropes), usually with the aim of creating a discourse about them, even a criticism of the original form.

Plainest example is Dances With Wolves. It takes one of the quintessential villains of golden age Westerns - the Indian - and shows them in a sympathetic light telling "their side of the story".

Moral ambiguity is certainly a consequence, since old westerns had usually - although not always - clear black/white morality. Take Unforgiven. It's a twist on the classic trope of some abused party hiring a gunman to right a wrong, seeking justice outside the system because in the frontier the system is nowhere. But in Unforgiven the resulting violence is so high and joyless, that it poses the question: has justice been served here?

My "theory" is that for some reason Hollywood can't really churn out successful non-revisionist Westerns and be successful with them (all the big hits are revisionist films like Unforgiven, Dances With Wolves, True Grit, Django Unchained...), while it can churn out pretty straightforward stuff in other genres and be successful. Horror films haven't really changed their genre structures since the 1950s.

I have just realized this is a fairly pedantic debate, but bear with me. I tend to lose myself when talking about movies. 

[11B4V]

I can agree with your definition of revisionist, but not how you apply it. IMO your off in your application of it here.

My "theory" is that for some reason Hollywood can't really churn out successful non-revisionist Westerns and be successful with them (all the big hits are revisionist films like Unforgiven, Dances With Wolves, True Grit, Django Unchained...), while it can churn out pretty straightforward stuff in other genres and be successful. Horror films haven't really changed their genre structures since the 1950s.

That's because they are bullshit. There is plenty of hard research data that says so. IMO people want see what it was genuinely like.

There are some very good books on the subject of the west. Some very good character studies of well known and lesser know personalities. You should maybe start there in understanding the old west as opposed to the 50's movie genre. Unforgiven is not revisionist in as the 50's western were never really an accurate portray at all. Unforgiven would be closer to actual reality. Therefore revisionist to the 50's BS....yes. Not revisionist to actually how the west was.

Moral ambiguity? That essentially defines that period.

[garbon]

How is he off in his application? The revisionism is in relation to the film style of Westerns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Western