TV/Movies Megathread

[Admiral Yi]

Watched just a little bit of Breakfast Club the other night (the cigarette burn scene).  The Judd Nelson character really had some shitty lines.

[celedhring]

Apart from the eternal time travel grandfather paradox bit, what plot holes did T2 have?

1) They send the T-800 at exactly the same point in the past as the T-1000, instead of say, one year earlier to prepare and take Connor to safety, etc... That's more a plot contrivance than a hole, per se, but somehow it always annoyed me.

2) They supposedly destroy all the traces of the Terminators in order to prevent humanity to replicate Skynet's technology, but they forget all the bits and pieces Arnie has lost in the way (including an entire robotic arm)

3) Lots of instances of characters behaving like retards in order to advance the plot or produce shock value. (For example, pretty much everybody working in that mental institution).

Again, I may seem overly harsh, I do like the movie a lot. It just isn't the masterpiece for the ages my 13 year old self thought at the time :p

[Josquius]

The cinema in the city I used to live in showed Terminator 1 and 2 on the big screen a few months back. Oh to have seen it.

[Eddie Teach]

The cinema in the city I used to live in showed Terminator 1 and 2 on the big screen a few months back. Oh to have seen it.

Pull it together, man! 

[Viking]

Apart from the eternal time travel grandfather paradox bit, what plot holes did T2 have?

1) They send the T-800 at exactly the same point in the past as the T-1000, instead of say, one year earlier to prepare and take Connor to safety, etc... That's more a plot contrivance than a hole, per se, but somehow it always annoyed me.

2) They supposedly destroy all the traces of the Terminators in order to prevent humanity to replicate Skynet's technology, but they forget all the bits and pieces Arnie has lost in the way (including an entire robotic arm)

3) Lots of instances of characters behaving like retards in order to advance the plot or produce shock value. (For example, pretty much everybody working in that mental institution).

Again, I may seem overly harsh, I do like the movie a lot. It just isn't the masterpiece for the ages my 13 year old self thought at the time :p

1) Time travel doesn't exist. They can make it work any way they want. They don't explain why they show up at the same time. The drama of the story resolves around the two time travelers racing to kill/save the target. Thi isn't so much a plot hole as it is the premise of the story.

2) Yes, but how is this a plot hole. T3 gives Skynet a totally different origin, whatever they did seems to have worked. The alternate origin for Skynet suggests it is a Dr Who style fixed point in time.

3) People being stupid or cruel for the sake of drama and action is not a plot hole. The movie did not have 2 hrs to establish how Sarah Conner's real fears were perceived as paranoid schizophrenia by the staff at the mental hospital and the staff were pissed off at her continued resistance and frequent use of violence.

A plot hole, or plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot, sometimes even contradicting itself. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or, statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

Everything within the story that happens in T2 is completely consistent with the characters, their knowledge and prejudices.

[celedhring]

A plot hole, or plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot, sometimes even contradicting itself. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or, statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

Everything within the story that happens in T2 is completely consistent with the characters, their knowledge and prejudices.

There's plenty of this in T2 to be frank. For starters, why does the T-1000 randomly kill John Connor's dad after impersonating his mother? Again, it's a cool scene, but makes little sense if the T-1000 intends to lure him back home to just start killing people while he's  talking to Connor through the phone. Why don't the Dysons call the police immediately after somebody just starts shooting their house? There's plenty of time and opportunity to do so, but they choose to wait and let those weirdos come in and tell them some madhouse story about robots from the future. Why do they take John - hardly a military asset being a boy - to the attack at cyberdyne knowing that they are endangering the resistance's most prized asset since - as the T-800 warns - the T-1000 will reach to the same conclusion?

All of these licences are taken for dramatic effect and the goal of ultimately producing cool stuff, but I was groaning a bit towards the end. Still, I like the film a lot, but it isn't as tight as I remembered it.

[The Brain]

T2 blows.

[Savonarola]

I saw a collection of shorts called Old Time Comedy Classics 6; that featured films made in the early 1920s.  Three were Al Christie productions starring Bobby Vernon; the other was a Max Sennett production. 

The Sennett production, Skylarking, is the typical Max Sennett film; there's a wacky inventor with a flying car, some funny mishaps in the beginning which ultimately leads to a wild chase.  This one features the inventor getting stranded in the lions den in the zoo, attacked by pelicans and stranded in the ocean.  Every Max Sennett film has the same structure; it works though, he managed to survive into the sound era (like many small studios his was ruined by the Great Depression.)

Bobby Vernon was something of a poor man's Charley Chase.  His films are situation comedies which are filled bullying mother-in-laws, enormous romantic rivals, incompetent police officers, and wacky chases.  Christie studios were also ruined by the Depression and Veron went on to become a writer in the sound era.

The films are all in the public domain.  The releasing company, Televista, left the prints in pretty rough shape and paired them with music also in the public domain.  This results in wild shifts in orchestration and style from piece to piece.

[Josephus]

Watched just a little bit of Breakfast Club the other night (the cigarette burn scene).  The Judd Nelson character really had some shitty lines.

A classic that.

[Ideologue]

The Act of Killing (2013).  Documentary about the participants in the 1965 genocide of commies and Chinese and other folks in Indoensia subsequent to the military coup.

I think the point Josh Oppenheimer is trying to make is that death squads are bad.  The point I actually received was that our side needs death squads too, otherwise our side just gets killed and the winners go on to make shitty art films at the behest of a documentarian exploiting them and the tragedy they caused for his own careerist purposes.  It's also a little slow.

That said, I suppose I did like it when the documentary's focal point, Anwar Congo, former death squaddy, realizes that he's done some seriously evil shit.  However, this realization is somewhat undermined by the fact that he has to have it in the first place.  Indeed--except this one guy who has at least enough sense to understand basic ethical concepts and talks about the killings he took part in as if Josh Oppenheimer's audience might just consider them to be villainous--everyone in Indonesia seems to be so fucking dense, unsavvy to the wider world, and downright personally amoral that they openly brag about murdering communists and raping their 14 year old daughters.  But maybe that's Oppenheimer's secondary point: Indonesia sucks.

Ultimately, the characters studied are so alien I just wanted Oppenheimer to poison them, and he didn't.  Honestly, other than the fact that humans are bad, I don't think I learned much of anything.  But that's probably enough.

B

World War Pepsi (2013).  Ahhhh.  That's refreshing.

I'm gonna write this up later.

B

[Ideologue]

Yo, Mike.  Blue is the Warmest Color is presently available for rental via Amazon.

For real this time.

[Viking]

A plot hole, or plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot, sometimes even contradicting itself. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or, statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

Everything within the story that happens in T2 is completely consistent with the characters, their knowledge and prejudices.

There's plenty of this in T2 to be frank. For starters, why does the T-1000 randomly kill John Connor's dad after impersonating his mother? Again, it's a cool scene, but makes little sense if the T-1000 intends to lure him back home to just start killing people while he's  talking to Connor through the phone.

To show that Arnie is good and Robert is evil. We are still not completely sure of it at the time. It is also the first (iirc) use of the T-1000 metal power. This is not a plot hole. Also it makes sense if the T-1000 is trying to convince him to return while the dad doesn't.

Why don't the Dysons call the police immediately after somebody just starts shooting their house? There's plenty of time and opportunity to do so, but they choose to wait and let those weirdos come in and tell them some madhouse story about robots from the future.

Yes, random science guy isn't cool headed enough to overcome his fear of gun wielding psychopaths. Film at 23.

Why do they take John - hardly a military asset being a boy - to the attack at cyberdyne knowing that they are endangering the resistance's most prized asset since - as the T-800 warns - the T-1000 will reach to the same conclusion?

Because the T-800 was programmed to follow johns orders. This was established earlier when he ordered the machine not to kill.

All of these licences are taken for dramatic effect and the goal of ultimately producing cool stuff, but I was groaning a bit towards the end. Still, I like the film a lot, but it isn't as tight as I remembered it.

characters making stupid choices or actions or events used to emphasize character and personality. It's not like we are wondering how Batman got back to Gotham after escaping the pit, or why he he spent hours making the burning bat symbol rather than starting to save the city etc. You keep using those words "plot hole", they don't mean what you think they mean.

[celedhring]

I work as a screenwriter, when we say "plot hole" is when you cheat with the story in order to fit what you want to happen, not what should rationally happen, the hole meaning the scene or even story would fall apart if the characters behaved logically. Might be different work jargon since I'm Spanish. "This is a hole in the script", we say.

To show that Arnie is good and Robert is evil. We are still not completely sure of it at the time. It is also the first (iirc) use of the T-1000 metal power. This is not a plot hole. Also it makes sense if the T-1000 is trying to convince him to return while the dad doesn't.

So, necessities of the plot and shock value trumping the most logical action (and it's already pretty clear by this time that the T-1000 is evil, this happens after the mall scene where the T-800 saves John). Dad is just drinking a carton of milk, he isn't even part of the conversation. The T-1000 kills him just because.

Yes, random science guy isn't cool headed enough to overcome his fear of gun wielding psychopaths. Film at 23.

Sarah Connor gets a conscience attack and just lies down, the T-800 and John enter without any gun. There's ample opportunity and that's what everybody would do instead of talking to these guys. It's a whole family in there, and nobody even makes a dash to seek help? Don't buy it.

Mind, I love the underlying drama of the scene, Dyson discovering he is responsible for billions of deaths. The writer just cheats in order to get to that moment.

Because the T-800 was programmed to follow johns orders. This was established earlier when he ordered the machine not to kill.

characters making stupid choices or actions or events used to emphasize character and personality. It's not like we are wondering how Batman got back to Gotham after escaping the pit, or why he he spent hours making the burning bat symbol rather than starting to save the city etc.

Problem is the Terminator doesn't even attempt to convince him. It would be decent drama if Sarah or the T-800 suggested he stays with the latin weapons guy while they go to Cyberdyne, and he rebuked them or disobeyed them. No, they just take him to a place where they not only might encounter the T-1000, but an entire SWAT team.

Look, I'm not that much of a nitpicker, I do overlook this kind of stuff for the sake of enjoyment. But there's lots of other scenes where T2 cheats in order to get its way besides those I have ellaborated (for example, how the asylum guards ignore the T-800 and John once they have already broken in, how the T-1000 somehow always choses some pretty impractical - but flashy - ways to try to kill his prey), so the accumulative effect was pretty jading when I rewatched the film. One of the good things of this and the first film is the reality of it, how Cameron takes what could be a cheesy B-movie premise and takes it seriously, he goes all the way to make it as believable as he can - something a lot of big budget films don't actually do. These contrivances, holes, whatever you want to call them - I'm really not that interested in debating lexicon, but the movie - undermined it a bit for me.

[Savonarola]

The Deerslayer (Lederstrumpf, 1. Teil: Der Wildtöter und Chingachgook) (1920)

Injuns run rampant in upstate Bavaria New York in this German adaptation of James Fenimore Cooper's novel.  The story is set up about the same as "Last of the Mohicans."  The Deerslayer (who earns the nickname "Hawkeye" in this story due to his love of martinis and nurses) and his pal Chingachgook (played by none other than Bela Lugosi) try to protect two pretty young white women from the Iroquois as the French and English battle it out for North America.

The film relies over heavily on title cards.  The attitudes towards Native Americans comes from a decidedly different time.  The Indians frequently begin and end their sentences with "Ugh."  My personal favorite was one that Hawkeye shoots who says "I die now, Ugh."  When Hawkeye is given the choice to either marry an Iroquois or be burned at the stake he retorts:  ""I am a white man. You cannot know what it means to be a white man. I will marry no Indian.""

There are some lost scenes as well.  A recurring motif is a group of teenagers wearing broad hats sitting around with one reading aloud.  They're never introduced, and it's never explained who they are.  It took me awhile to realize that they were supposed to be boy scouts reading "The Deerslayer," rather than the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Junior Division who were fixing to send the Injuns to gaol.

[Ideologue]

his pal Chingachgook (played by none other than Bela Lugosi)

Oh brother.

Do you think Psellus would like it better than the Mann version?