Muslims 'Greet' Returning British Troops on Parade

[Josquius]

[qumeaningful Muslim organisation in the UK. While it is convenient for many White Christians to apply that template to the brown folk, anyone who scratches the surface of the Muslim community in the UK learns quickly taht the real distinctions are between Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, Lebanese, Syrian etc etc.

Hmmm, but apparently the radicals can manage to organize well enough to have these little protests. Once would think the non-radical could orgnaize enough to issue a press release or something saying "Hey, those assholes are just that - assholes. They don't represent us, we think they are morons, and we support the troops who went and died to try to make things better in other countries".

I reject the idea that their silence is somehow mandatory, and ONLY the radicals can possibly be heard.
[/quote]


But then that's giving the idiots undue weight and admitting that it may be up for debate that they could possibly represent the general community. I think it says quite enough that only 20 out of 20,000 (or was it 30,000?) muslims showed up here. Especially given that most of them would agree with the core anti-war views.

[Berkut]

I think what it says is that the radicals get to represent islam, since they are the only ones who have a voice that is heard. Presumably because the non-radicals are making a tactical choice to not respond?

I don't buy it - I think it is because there really isn't all that much dis-satisfaction in the "moderate" Muslim community with these views. Certainly there is some, but there appears to be a LOT who think that the radicals are wrong to be so radical, but fundamentally right in their basic view on the positions.

I could be wrong about this of course - but then, it would be easy for the "vast majority" of Muslims who we are assured are very moderate to correct my perception.

[Grallon]

Delanda Carthago Est !



Mark them, herd them, ship them out.




G.

[Warspite]

I think what it says is that the radicals get to represent islam, since they are the only ones who have a voice that is heard. Presumably because the non-radicals are making a tactical choice to not respond?

Responding is not a "free" activity. Organising takes time, money and social capital (ie connections and the right kind of social network). No one is going to listen to a community group unless they have some sort of recognition from the government or the press (ie they have a minister's ear, or do some sort of stunt for the journalists).

Apart from the MCB, I can't really think of any really coherent Muslim organisations in the UK. In fact from what I do know (a colleague I used to sit next to at work was involved in this area so I picked up a lot from him) it seems there are actually many different, small and uncoordinated organisations. There is no unified Muslim voice in the UK, really. There is no version of the Anglican or Catholic church for them to call.

And the diversity of the community of Muslims within the UK realise that this too militates against organisation. Go to a Gaza protest in Trafalgar Square, and you will see Arabs and left-wing white people. You will not see many Bangladeshis, Malaysians or Singaporeans. A protest about Afghanistan will attract the die-hard anti-war folk, who are not united by religion or ethnicity but by a specific anti-'imperial' agenda. They're all Muslims from the outside, until they sit in a room together and then the South Asians sit away from the Southeast Asians and the Levantine Arabs are in their little clique. It's a bit like trying to organise Christians - it's, in reality, a short-hand that is irrelevant. Here in London, Serbs go to the local Serbian church for mass, not the Greek or Russian ones. And the Croats all go to the Croatian mission, rather than one of the many, entirely more convenient, Catholic churches dotted all around the city.

Yet on the other hand we have Muslims serving in our armed forces, working in our diplomatic corps and in our Ministry of Defence. They, too, are not organised: there is no association of Muslim officers that gets quoted in the press - nor is there an organisation of Islamic diplomats that gets thrown in the column inches with a quote.

The situation is more like atheists, curiously enough. You have a few self-appointed spokesmen who get all the camera time by virtue of their prolific output. But because the community is so diverse and simply uninterested in mobilising, you don't really have an atheist community voice in any sense. Yes, sometimes a few people club together, people donate money for adverts on buses, but that is not group mobilisation in any real sense.

And to be honest, I can understand why a lot of Muslims don't bother organising. They are getting on with their own lives. I don't mobilise against the BNP even though I find their views repugnant, and my speaking out is limited to dinner parties and interweb fora. But that doesn't mean I tacitly support their views!

[Valmy]

The situation is more like atheists, curiously enough. You have a few self-appointed spokesmen who get all the camera time by virtue of their prolific output. But because the community is so diverse and simply uninterested in mobilising, you don't really have an atheist community voice in any sense. Yes, sometimes a few people club together, people donate money for adverts on buses, but that is not group mobilisation in any real sense.

Um how is it that it can be compared to Atheists?  Muslims go to Mosque and have an actual community.  Where as Atheists have nothing as Atheists.

If they do not mobilize their community that is their own failing.

[Grey Fox]

Where as Atheists have nothing as Atheists.

And that's the way we like it.

[The Minsky Moment]

Responding is not a "free" activity. Organising takes time, money and social capital (ie connections and the right kind of social network). No one is going to listen to a community group unless they have some sort of recognition from the government or the press (ie they have a minister's ear, or do some sort of stunt for the journalists).

Apart from the MCB, I can't really think of any really coherent Muslim organisations in the UK.

Well let's take the MCB then.  Apparently, the heavy burdens involve in issuing press releases did not prevent them from issuing a blizzard of them condemning Israel over the attacks in Gaza.   When it comes to trashing Zionists, there doesn't seem to be any difficulty in "responding" or organizing.

The impression that many people have is that the mainline Muslim groups don't criticize the radicals because either they sympathize with their motivations and objections (if not their precise methods) or because they are too afraid to say anything.  Perhaps that impression is unfair - but there it is, and groups like the MCB have not done much to dispel it.

[Warspite]

Um how is it that it can be compared to Atheists?  Muslims go to Mosque and have an actual community.  Where as Atheists have nothing as Atheists.

So because Muslims go to a mosque, they should necessarily form a community? I know the concept of the umma indicates that they nominally form one united community, in practice this has not been the case for the majority of Muslims.

There are of course exceptions but the identities that often matter more for a muslim are national ones - just like every Catholic does not, in fact, take orders from the Pope.

One example of the misunderstanding this conflation brings about is the idea that in the UK, Muslim communities are somehow self-segregating. But once you peel away the label of Muslim and look at ethnicity, the story changes markedly, and what in fact turns out to be the case is that some groups are far more conservative than others - Bangladeshis, for example, lead the way in measures of "integration", whereas Pakistanis lag behind. And anecdotally, I spent last Saturday getting hammered at a party with a bunch of Lebanese and Palestinian Muslims.

If they do not mobilize their community that is their own failing.

Failing? Why should they mobilise into a community? They have their own ethnic communities.

[Valmy]

So because Muslims go to a mosque, they should necessarily form a community? I know the concept of the umma indicates that they nominally form one united community, in practice this has not been the case for the majority of Muslims.

There are of course exceptions but the identities that often matter more for a muslim are national ones - just like every Catholic does not, in fact, take orders from the Pope.

Um...they meet at this building and I presume they would only go to meet there because they are like minded with the other people there.  Are you saying if a Catholic diocese felt a certain way they would not organize to do something about it?  Of course they would and do all the time.  The church community itself is a tool for social action.  They is why churches end up doing alot of community service and charity and the like, it is not like non-religious folks are not also in favor of and want to do those things but they tend to lack the ready made legions of volunteers a religious community affords.

Failing? Why should they mobilise into a community? They have their own ethnic communities.

Oh Muslims do not have festivals?  They never get together socially to do anything? 

I guess Islam is not at all like Jews and Christians and they just huddle alone in their bedroom and read the Quran every night?  Nonsense.

On the other hand do ethnicities have special meeting houses and get together once a week to talk about ethnicity and do charity work?  Highly doubtful.

I did not mean to say that ALL Muslims were united into one giant community.  Just that I presume there are radical Mosques and non-radical mosques and they both are equally well organized.  Why the former, and presumably smaller one, gets all the time in the press is bizarre to me.

In any case they already exist as a community.  Even if said community is split by ethnicities that really doesn't matter.

[Warspite]

Responding is not a "free" activity. Organising takes time, money and social capital (ie connections and the right kind of social network). No one is going to listen to a community group unless they have some sort of recognition from the government or the press (ie they have a minister's ear, or do some sort of stunt for the journalists).

Apart from the MCB, I can't really think of any really coherent Muslim organisations in the UK.

Well let's take the MCB then.  Apparently, the heavy burdens involve in issuing press releases did not prevent them from issuing a blizzard of them condemning Israel over the attacks in Gaza.   When it comes to trashing Zionists, there doesn't seem to be any difficulty in "responding".

The impression that many people have is that the mainline Muslim groups don't criticize the radicals because either they sympathesize with their motivations and objections (if not their precise methods) or because they are too afraid to say anything.  Perhaps that impression is unfair - but there it is, and groups like the MCB have not done much to dispel it.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/media/press.php

Indeed there is a flurry of responses to Gaza. But also responses to Mumbai, a call for calm with the publication of the 'Jewel of Medina', a short statement on the teacher arrested in Sudan, and also on the website is a blanket condemnation of all terrorism performed in the name of Islam.

Anyway, the MCB is one of those bodies that has been criticised in the past as being self-appointed. I don't know enough about it to know fully whom they speak for.

[The Minsky Moment]

http://www.mcb.org.uk/media/press.php

Of wow - they JUST put that up on their site sometime in the last couple minutes.  It was not there when I posted.

I concede the point.

[Valmy]

Yeah nice post there by the MCB.

[Warspite]

Um...they meet at this building and I presume they would only go to meet there because they are like minded with the other people there.  Are you saying if a Catholic diocese felt a certain way they would not organize to do something about it?  Of course they would and do all the time.  The church community itself is a tool for social action.  They is why churches end up doing alot of community service and charity and the like, it is not like non-religious folks are not also in favor of and want to do those things but they tend to lack the ready made legions of volunteers a religious community affords.

Yes, and? The views of one diocese would not really warrant publication. But the views of the Anglican church or the Archbishop of Westminster (the Catholic church in the UK) would. And as far as I know there is no similar overarching body for all mosques in the UK.

Oh Muslims do not have festivals?  They never get together socially to do anything? 

I guess Islam is not at all like Jews and Christians and they just huddle alone in their bedroom and read the Quran every night?  Nonsense.

On the other hand do ethnicities have special meeting houses and get together once a week to talk about ethnicity and do charity work?  Highly doubtful.

Er, actually, they are remarkably common - in London, at least. Today, I drove past a specificly Bangladeshi community centre. I know it performs charitable work as it is in a deprived area. And last week I had supper in a Serbian community centre in West London.

Remember, it is one thing to have a religion in common, but quite another to have a native tongue and set of cultural understandings in common.

I did not mean to say that ALL Muslims were united into one giant community.  Just that I presume there are radical Mosques and non-radical mosques and they both are equally well organized.  Why the former, and presumably smaller one, gets all the time in the press is bizarre to me.

I think this is common with radical agendas. In the 1980s, Thatcher attacked the press for giving Irish terrorism the "oxygen of publicity". In the 2000s, you will make a more attractive news article talking about the firey hate being preached at a Finsbury Park mosque than you will about the voice of normal British Muslims, who I regret to say are generally are as tedious and dull as the average white person is.

[Warspite]

http://www.mcb.org.uk/media/press.php

Of wow - they JUST put that up on their site sometime in the last couple minutes.  It was not there when I posted.

I concede the point.

Wasn't there when I posted it either! They must have a mole on Languish.

[Valmy]

[Yes, and? The views of one diocese would not really warrant publication. But the views of the Anglican church or the Archbishop of Westminster (the Catholic church in the UK) would. And as far as I know there is no similar overarching body for all mosques in the UK.

So they have community organizations that are already designed to advance ideas of morality and social justice and charity through organized group action.  That is rather convenient don't you think?

I think this is common with radical agendas. In the 1980s, Thatcher attacked the press for giving Irish terrorism the "oxygen of publicity". In the 2000s, you will make a more attractive news article talking about the firey hate being preached at a Finsbury Park mosque than you will about the voice of normal British Muslims, who I regret to say are generally are as tedious and dull as the average white person is.

What you thought people were dull just because of their race?  Anyway I find radical people pretty boring as well, they are sorta cool as a gimmick but they just say the same shit over and over and over.