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Treason to a US State?

Started by viper37, April 08, 2010, 12:27:25 AM

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The Minsky Moment

Quote from: grumbler on April 08, 2010, 04:26:16 PM
I cannot imagine a conscientious jury deciding whether Brown owed allegiance to a state in which he had never resided (I know you have decided this for yourself, but you don't have a jury's responsibility) in 45 minutes.

It depends what instructions the judge gave.  If the judge instructed the jury that Brown's residence was irrelevant to the treason charge, it wouldn't take up any time at all.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

MadImmortalMan

I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to commit treason against a state in theory. It's probably incredibly rare though, since all of the states have delegated their functions of foreign interest to the feds.
"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

grumbler

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 08, 2010, 06:01:56 PM
I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to commit treason against a state in theory. It's probably incredibly rare though, since all of the states have delegated their functions of foreign interest to the feds.
In neither case of which I am aware has the issue of foreign involvement been an issue.  For the states, treason is simply rebellion/insurrection, it seems.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Neil

If a man who is guilty of all sorts of crimes that would carry the death penalty is wrongly convicted and hanged, what does it matter?  Public order is of more value than spending valuable time sorting out why we're hanging a man?
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2010, 12:51:13 PM
John Brown was a religious nutter who committed murder.

Go fuck yourself.  There.


CountDeMoney

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 08, 2010, 02:31:48 PM
Didn't he kill people in Kansas too?

He simply gave certain anti-Free Staters who were publicly known to have murdered, plotted to murder, and participate in the sacking of Lawrence a taste of their own medicine.

Heaven forbid Abolitionists should use violence against those who committed much more heinous atrocities. Abolitionists should simply walk around and pray, right?  Fuck you.


CountDeMoney

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2010, 12:48:39 PM
Having said that, I also don't see the basis of the "sham" argument;

I expect Berkut to have his opinion on the Brown matter, but you?  And as a Jew, no less.  Disappointing.

dps

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 08, 2010, 07:36:00 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2010, 12:48:39 PM
Having said that, I also don't see the basis of the "sham" argument;

I expect Berkut to have his opinion on the Brown matter, but you?  And as a Jew, no less.  Disappointing.

Actually, your position is the one I find interesting.  In my experience, law enforcement professionals generally don't endorse vigilantism, at least not publicly.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: dps on April 08, 2010, 07:58:43 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 08, 2010, 07:36:00 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2010, 12:48:39 PM
Having said that, I also don't see the basis of the "sham" argument;

I expect Berkut to have his opinion on the Brown matter, but you?  And as a Jew, no less.  Disappointing.

Actually, your position is the one I find interesting.  In my experience, law enforcement professionals generally don't endorse vigilantism, at least not publicly.

John Brown wasn't engaging in vigilantism; he was fighting a war in the Cromwellian sense against an entrenched entity and those who espoused it, protected by law, custom and prejudice.

If anything, he was fighting for America's soul...you know, the one that was included in the Declaration of Independence.

PDH

I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

-------
"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

Eddie Teach

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 08, 2010, 08:09:02 PM
John Brown wasn't engaging in vigilantism; he was fighting a war in the Cromwellian sense against an entrenched entity and those who espoused it, protected by law, custom and prejudice.

Fine, he was fighting a war and not wearing a uniform, so he got executed as a spy.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 08, 2010, 08:25:21 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 08, 2010, 08:09:02 PM
John Brown wasn't engaging in vigilantism; he was fighting a war in the Cromwellian sense against an entrenched entity and those who espoused it, protected by law, custom and prejudice.

Fine, he was fighting a war and not wearing a uniform, so he got executed as a spy.

Stop hating black people.

DontSayBanana

Quote from: dps on April 08, 2010, 07:58:43 PM
Actually, your position is the one I find interesting.  In my experience, law enforcement professionals generally don't endorse vigilantism, at least not publicly.

Insurrection against a perceived morally bankrupt entity is a wee bit different from vigilantism. ;)
Experience bij!

dps

Quote from: DontSayBanana on April 08, 2010, 10:55:21 PM
Quote from: dps on April 08, 2010, 07:58:43 PM
Actually, your position is the one I find interesting.  In my experience, law enforcement professionals generally don't endorse vigilantism, at least not publicly.

Insurrection against a perceived morally bankrupt entity is a wee bit different from vigilantism. ;)

I was referring more to CdM's defense of his actions in Missouri than to what took place at Harper's Ferry.

garbon

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 08, 2010, 08:09:02 PM
John Brown wasn't engaging in vigilantism; he was fighting a war in the Cromwellian sense against an entrenched entity and those who espoused it, protected by law, custom and prejudice.

John Brown :bleeding:
Cromwell :bleeding:
Brown x Cromwell...:x
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.