Serbia debates Srebrenica apology

[Neil]

Even if that was true, motivations don't matter, it's still an act of genocide.

Do you even know what genocide is?

[grumbler]

Or maybe it was payback from the raids on Serbian villages around Srebrenica, raids that killed between 1600 and 2300 people. Men, women and children, young and old. Several 1000's more was forced to flee over the mountains to Serbia in the middle of winter. payback in the balkans has always been harsh and tenfold...

Two acts of genocide don't equal zero acts of genocide...

[grumbler]

Even if that was true, motivations don't matter, it's still an act of genocide.

Actually, motivations are totally relevant to whether an act is an act of genocide or not, as genocide requires acts committed with "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group."  You are correct that the reason behind that intent is irrelevant, though.

Thus, Srebrenica was obviously an act of genocide, as it was clearly an act committed with intent to destroy a part of an ethnic group.

[ulmont]

Actually, motivations are totally relevant to whether an act is an act of genocide or not, as genocide requires acts committed with "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group."  You are correct that the reason behind that intent is irrelevant, though.

Thus, Srebrenica was obviously an act of genocide, as it was clearly an act committed with intent to destroy a part of an ethnic group.

While it may be accurate, your point is orthogonal to mine, as I took no position regarding the genocide or lack thereof in Srebrenica, but merely noted that to be genocide, an act must have a certain intent, and thus motivations are at issue.

[Queequeg]

I think Serbia's actually been about as forthcoming on admitting to Genocide and attempting to make up for wrongs of the past as any offending country...ever.  Really impressive.  Too bad the Albanian Kosovars don't seem to have learned the lesson that cultural annihilation is wrong, and have spent the last decade destroying Churches and going on pogroms.   

Why did we let that country pretend to be independent again?

[Agelastus]

I think Serbia's actually been about as forthcoming on admitting to Genocide and attempting to make up for wrongs of the past as any offending country...ever.  Really impressive.  Too bad the Albanian Kosovars don't seem to have learned the lesson that cultural annihilation is wrong, and have spent the last decade destroying Churches and going on pogroms.   

Why did we let that country pretend to be independent again?

Because Western politicians at the time seemed to have a conditioned response, "Serb bad, anyone else good"?

[Viking]

And here I was thinking that we got rid of the balkantards a long time ago?

[Admiral Yi]

Why did we let that country pretend to be independent again?

Because Europe in general and Italy in particular were worried about refugees.

[Martinus]

I'll wait for gays to apologize. 

[Martinus]

If a Communist or Fascist dictatorship has 8,000 political prisoners lined up and shot, that's mass murder.

If Ethnic Group X lines up 8,000 members of Ethnic Group Y and has them shot, that's an act of genocide.

Unless Ethnic Group Y is really, really small I think 8,000 is too small a number to qualify for genocide.

By that reasoning, there has never been genocide of Jews or Armenians, because some got away.

[Neil]

Because Western politicians at the time seemed to have a conditioned response, "Serb bad, anyone else good"?

And they're right.  Everything bad that happens to Serbia is owed to them, for destroying civilization and any hope for the future of humanity, back in 1914.

[Warspite]

I think Serbia's actually been about as forthcoming on admitting to Genocide and attempting to make up for wrongs of the past as any offending country...ever.

Uh, only the forward-looking adminstration of Tadic has made efforts to repair ties with neighbours. But they still haven't apologised for genocide. Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but the Bosnians who spent the war holed up in the murder alleys of Sarajevo for example are a little more sensitive about these things.

Scratch beneath the surface, and you'll find plenty of Serbs with a victim-complex, many of whom sit in the Serbian parliament in the nationalist parties.

Really impressive.  Too bad the Albanian Kosovars don't seem to have learned the lesson that cultural annihilation is wrong, and have spent the last decade destroying Churches and going on pogroms.   

The Kosovar Albanians have done some pretty shameful things but what they have done over the last ten years cannot compare with the systematic eradication the Serbs tried in 1998-9; it doesn't help that Milosevic managed to discredit the moderate movement of Rugova. It's the same thing that happened in Northern Ireland: instead of moderate unionists and catholics, it's the nutjobs and thugs from each side that sit in power now.

Why did we let that country pretend to be independent again?

Because it was a fiction to pretend it would ever be part of Serbia again.

I spoke to plenty of Serbs who saw the province as gangrenous limb that needed to be cut off. It was the poorest province of Yugoslavia in 1919; it was still the same in 1989. Plenty of Kosovar Serbs couldn't wait to emigrate to Belgrade in the intervening 70 years. There are two kinds of Serbs that have a grievance over Kosovo. The first lot have a legitimate concern - that their sovereign territory has forcibly been sliced off with dubious legality. The second are the nutcases: they think that Serbia has a God-given right to an Albanian majority province because they fought the Turks there centuries ago. Unfortunately, the latter happily organised the very campaign of domination and violence that pushed the moderate Albanian scene off the stage.

[grumbler]

Unless Ethnic Group Y is really, really small I think 8,000 is too small a number to qualify for genocide.

By that reasoning, there has never been genocide of Jews or Armenians, because some got away.

To be fair, Spicy has never been good at reading comprehension, so the bit about "in whole or in part" went right past him.  Picking on him for that may be unfair.

[Martinus]

The second are the nutcases: they think that Serbia has a God-given right to an Albanian majority province because they fought the Turks there centuries ago.

Claims like that didn't stop Israel.

[Siege]

Because Western politicians at the time seemed to have a conditioned response, "Serb bad, anyone else good"?

And they're right.  Everything bad that happens to Serbia is owed to them, for destroying civilization and any hope for the future of humanity, back in 1914.

Indeed. We would be far more technologically advance if it werent for WW1, the serbians, and the muslims.

I want my damn flying car!