Catholic kiddie fiddlers part 1463: Victims react to pontiff's letter

[garbon]

sandbox

[Martinus]

I had thought that this scandal was old news and had lost the power to shock but the revelation that Brady:

(a) was involved in pressuring two teen victims of abuse to sign confidentiality agreements protecting the Church and the offender, and
(b) apparently sees no real problem in this even today,

was IMO pretty damn disturbing, especially coming from such a senior official.

It also was reinvigorated by the recent scandals that erupted in Austria, Germany (including under the supervision of the Pope's brother, and also with some "mistakes" linked to the Pope himself although he denies knowledge), the Netherlands, Denmark and Brazil.

[Martinus]

We need a gay sub-forum.

Wtf this is not gay news.

[The Minsky Moment]

At risk of the doing the dreaded cross-thread reference, doesn't this sort of demostrate the danger of large collective institutions with strong moral missions?  A big part of the problem here seems to me that the Church thinks that because it is on a Belushi-like "mission from God," it thinks that problems like rampant sexual abuse of children are just annoyances that get in the way of the more important work that they need to be doing.   Whereas some amoral corporation just out to make a buck would clean house and can everyone in sight, from the CEO on down, if that was needed to fix the PR mess.

[Malthus]

At risk of the doing the dreaded cross-thread reference, doesn't this sort of demostrate the danger of large collective institutions with strong moral missions?  A big part of the problem here seems to me that the Church thinks that because it is on a Belushi-like "mission from God," it thinks that problems like rampant sexual abuse of children are just annoyances that get in the way of the more important work that they need to be doing.   Whereas some amoral corporation just out to make a buck would clean house and can everyone in sight, from the CEO on down, if that was needed to fix the PR mess.

I agree that it is an organizational problem - it's a problem that goes with having a "top down" religious organization.

The Jewish model, which in essence appears to treat religious professionals much like any other sort of professional (in that each congregation hires their own) appears to have relatively less of an issue with this: there are certainly still sex scandals, but the perps are seemingly less likely to be viewed as a problem for the religion as a whole and there is less incentive to cover up for them.

[Martinus]

At risk of the doing the dreaded cross-thread reference, doesn't this sort of demostrate the danger of large collective institutions with strong moral missions?  A big part of the problem here seems to me that the Church thinks that because it is on a Belushi-like "mission from God," it thinks that problems like rampant sexual abuse of children are just annoyances that get in the way of the more important work that they need to be doing.   Whereas some amoral corporation just out to make a buck would clean house and can everyone in sight, from the CEO on down, if that was needed to fix the PR mess.

I agree that it is an organizational problem - it's a problem that goes with having a "top down" religious organization.

The Jewish model, which in essence appears to treat religious professionals much like any other sort of professional (in that each congregation hires their own) appears to have relatively less of an issue with this: there are certainly still sex scandals, but the perps are seemingly less likely to be viewed as a problem for the religion as a whole and there is less incentive to cover up for them.

Well, you guys don't have monasteries or celibacy in the first place.

[DGuller]

Well, you guys don't have monasteries or celibacy in the first place.

But we have Jewish wives.

[Admiral Yi]

Well, you guys don't have monasteries or celibacy in the first place.

Or altar boys.

[Martinus]

Well, you guys don't have monasteries or celibacy in the first place.

Or altar boys.

True. Plus Jewish kids are fat. So they don't get molested.

[Malthus]

Well, you guys don't have monasteries or celibacy in the first place.

I think celebacy is a problem, but only in a roundabout way: being celebate certainly isn't going to *make* folks molest children if they otherwise would not, but it may in effect provide good cover for a person uninterested in ordinary sexual relations with adults (or adult women specifically in more traditional societies where homosexuality is considered shameful or criminal -- it acts as a refuge for both pedophiles *and* homosexuals).

Plenty of pedophiles seem to have no problem being married, though. Such types could easily be Rabbis. The difference is that Jewish congregations are notoriously assertive, and do not necessarily defer to the Rabbi they are employing; if they discover that their Rabbi is buggering little Moshe, he's out on his ear and in a jail cell right quick - there is none of this going to a helpful bishop to prevent scandal to the church. The congregation's board of directors consider *themselves*, not the Rabbi, to be the "community leaders". The Rabbi's an employee - an honoured one to be sure, like a lawyer or doctor, but not above suspicion and they can (and are) fired and ratted out to the cops if they are abusive.

In contrast, the "lay community" has a lot less pull in Catholicism, with its bishops, cardinals and Pope at the top. In Judaism, the "top" is the board of directors of an individual synagogue - there exist larger organizations, but they are not controlling. This creates whole sets of different problems, as the types who make up the avearge board can often be incredibly petty minded and full of the usual bullshit and politicing. What happens if you don't like it is that you go to a different synagogue (or start your own).   

[Martinus]

Actually I talked about this with an Israeli guy yesterday and he told me at least in Israel there is likely to be a similar level of cover-up (though more "grassroots" than structural) if a rabbi was found to molest children. He told me such cases are very unlikely to be reported to secular authorities, especially among the orthodox Jews.

[Tamas]

Actually I talked about this with an Israeli guy yesterday and he told me at least in Israel there is likely to be a similar level of cover-up (though more "grassroots" than structural) if a rabbi was found to molest children. He told me such cases are very unlikely to be reported to secular authorities, especially among the orthodox Jews.

no matter what the catholic in you surfaces.

this you will find in every religion of course.

point is, with catholics it is nearing industrial levels because due to their (low) prestige in european society and celibacy, only perverted assholes will become priests.

[Martinus]

How is the catholic in me surfacing? I'm just saying that not every account from Jewish/Israeli people seems to confirm Malthus' view.

[Malthus]

Actually I talked about this with an Israeli guy yesterday and he told me at least in Israel there is likely to be a similar level of cover-up (though more "grassroots" than structural) if a rabbi was found to molest children. He told me such cases are very unlikely to be reported to secular authorities, especially among the orthodox Jews.

Israeli society may be different than North America, I dunno.

Here, the "Orthodox" include guys like the Riechmanns, of "Canary Warf" fame (or infamy  ). They attended a shul not two blocks from my parent's house - I doubt that they would tolerate a rabbi in their employ molesting their kids (though admittedly it may not be reported to the cops ...  )

[Barrister]

Here, the "Orthodox" include guys like the Riechmanns, of "Canary Warf" fame (or infamy  ). They attended a shul not two blocks from my parent's house - I doubt that they would tolerate a rabbi in their employ molesting their kids (though admittedly it may not be reported to the cops ...  )

I think that kind of dynamic exists in most religions though.  It's inherent in sexual abuse - the abuser is powerful and respected, the victim is a child and has little power.  All kinds of excuses can be dreamed up to minimize the behaviour.

I once represented a mom in a child welfare application.  She and her husband were very conservative mennonites, living in a very conservative mennonite town.  Anyways dad diddled a couple of his daughters.  When it came out he had to 'confess' to the congregation, they did something or other, then they considered the matter closed and were shocked when the CFS worker thought otherwise...