The End of Christian America

[Viking]

Every time I hear someone argue that Atheists are more educated/intelligent/tolerant/fun, I just send them this YouTube Video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mgGBuEdvF0

While I respect a lot of Atheists (yourself included) and tend to agree with them on a lot of things (state secularism, science and whatnot), there is a certain type of unintelligent Atheist who thinks his Atheism is a panacea for his want of intelligence that I think is far, far more annoying than your garden variety Evangelical.

Great you find one idiot on YouTube and you've got proof positive that atheists are arrogant idiots. But to point you to the Project Steve response to anecdotal arguments. Where the NCSE responded to the Discovery Institutes signature list of 200 scientists by getting 200 Scientists names Steve to sign a counter signature list.

For every Amazing Atheist you have a VenomFangX who equates atheism with ignorance and can't understand the big bang theory and a dozen more less clever creationists who can't work their camera.

I'd like to know, which atheist thinks "Atheism is a panacea for" anything?

[Berkut]

This doesn't hold, I don't think, as there has been no great upswing in education or science or the like to explain the rise in Secularism as anything other than a reaction against a Revival.

And need I remind you that this country is (in)famous for its revivals.  Fanatical with the Pilgrims, the most secular nation in the world during the Revolution, fanatical during the Great Revival, secular after the Civil War, etc.....

There has, however, been a great upswing in our knowledge of the universe, and the evidence to support it.  That knowledge is devastating to Christianity.

The high school graduation rate since 1940 has gone from about 50% to about 80%.

College attendance rates, I am sure, have gone up dramatically as well.

The argument that there has been no upswing in education is spectacularly wrong.

Cherry-picked.  How about in comparison to 1980?

The 2003 census saw the highest high school and bachelor degrees ever. Increase from ~70% in 1980 to nearly 85% of 25 year olds having a high school diploma or more.

[Berkut]

I meant in the last 20 years, with the upswing in those who identify as non-religious. 

High school graduation rates in the US have increased over the last 20 years.

Obviously, as they approach higher percentages, teh rate of increase will decline.

But by another metric (percent with a bachelors degree or more) that provides a little more room for growth, in the 1980-2003 time frame the US saw the percentage go from ~15% to nearly 30%. Almost double.

[Berkut]

[Neil]

That's more useful.  Although it also goes to show how devalued and dumbed-down education has become.

[Barrister]

But the Evangelical movement is now totally out of steam, and there are a few more moderate Christian intellectuals out there.

I see no support for either statement.

They've run the Republican Party into the ground and couldn't get Huckabee nominated, they've turned to relatively moderate (and soft spoken) people like Warren who tend to focus more on poverty relief than prayer in schools, and well we now have Ross Douthat writing for the NYT, Andrew Sullivan and a few others.

I suspected you were confusing the political strength of the evangelical movement with its overall strength.

Don't do it.

The numbers I've seen still show that the number of self-identified evangelicals continues to increase.

[Queequeg]

Obviously, as they approach higher percentages, teh rate of increase will decline.

That's my exact objection; if Education and Secularization had such an obvious relationship, than the rise in self-identification as non-religious should have happened post-war rather than in the 1980s, as since then it appears as though the rate of growth in number of High School graduates, and the number of people receiving Bachelor's Degrees went from extremely low to pretty low. 

[Iormlund]

China, Turkey, the rise of Evangelical Christianity in Latin America?  If anything the secularization of Europe is somewhat unique to Europe, though obviously some areas are affected by Europe (Quebec).

The minor rise of a few unimportant (in context) religions in the backdrop of a uniform conservative background doesn't mean much. Islam, Evangelism and most religions are on the rise in Spain. But so is atheism or agnosticism, in much bigger numbers. They are all eating from the same cake, Catholicism. Over 70% of Spaniards say they are Catholics, yet seminars and churches are chronically empty. Nobody visits them for anything else besides marriages or funerals.
That gay marriage and adoption was passed over here without serious opposition speaks volumes. And Spain is not even a secular country.

Granted, the more barbaric a place, the less this trend is manifested. But it happens. External influence has been accused of corrupting people for eons. And it does. And now a big part of the World has access to material that undermines religious teachings.

[Queequeg]

Spain ! = The World.  If the Left had won the Civil War, in all probability after the collapse of a Communist Spanish government you'd have seen the rebirth of Catholicism; instead, the Church went into bed with Franco and still suffers from that.  Combined with the European tendency towards Secularization and you have a powerful social force.

But this is a unique case.  Hinduism is reviving under the BJP, Islam with Fundamentalism and the AKP, Christianity in China and with Evangelical movments encroaching on the terf of an ineffectual Catholic Church...

If anything the argument could be made that Secularism seems to be loosing ground outside of the United States, with the growth of Islam in Europe, and religious moments across Asia. 

Nice try.

[Iormlund]

Obviously, as they approach higher percentages, teh rate of increase will decline.

That's my exact objection; if Education and Secularization had such an obvious relationship, than the rise in self-identification as non-religious should have happened post-war rather than in the 1980s, as since then it appears as though the rate of growth in number of High School graduates, and the number of people receiving Bachelor's Degrees went from extremely low to pretty low.

You should not confuse self-identification with actual belief. I'm pretty sure "morals" declined sharply during those years. Sexual revolution, for example?

[Queequeg]

Obviously, as they approach higher percentages, teh rate of increase will decline.

That's my exact objection; if Education and Secularization had such an obvious relationship, than the rise in self-identification as non-religious should have happened post-war rather than in the 1980s, as since then it appears as though the rate of growth in number of High School graduates, and the number of people receiving Bachelor's Degrees went from extremely low to pretty low.

You should not confuse self-identification with actual belief. I'm pretty sure "morals" declined sharply during those years. Sexual revolution, for example?

American parishioners listen to talks about Chastity in Church while ogling the rack of the Preacher's daughter.  Why do you think Evangelicals have high rates of teen pregnancy? 

[Ed Anger]

American parishioners listen to talks about Chastity in Church while ogling the rack of the Preacher's daughter.  Why do you think Evangelicals have high rates of teen pregnancy?

Best part of Easter: the young mothers in their sunday dresses, and imaging what I would do to them.

[Caliga]

I wish there were more hot chicks at Princesca's family church.

They need to bring a dentist in there STAT.

[Berkut]

Obviously, as they approach higher percentages, teh rate of increase will decline.

That's my exact objection; if Education and Secularization had such an obvious relationship, than the rise in self-identification as non-religious should have happened post-war rather than in the 1980s, as since then it appears as though the rate of growth in number of High School graduates, and the number of people receiving Bachelor's Degrees went from extremely low to pretty low. 

You are reading way to0 much into the data, and more importantly details about the specific timing of particular "bumps". Education levels have consistently risen - secularism has consistently risen. They are likely linked, but not necessarily in such a direct manner that one would expect some kind of 1:1 ratio maintenance. There are a lot of variables involved beyond those two, even if one if influenced by the other to a great degree.

[Habsburg]

When will currency read "In PT Anderson and Sofia Coppola We Trust"