Millions of Iraqis defy bomb and rocket attacks to vote

[Martim Silva]

One can deconstruct things to prove the exact same thing about Russia, Iran, etc etc.

Russia has a government. It can be in many countries' interests to make Russia weak, but there IS a government in Russia to oppose this.

Same for Iran.

Iraq's government was wiped out, and nothing resembling a true goverment has come out. The governments that come out of the elections are jokes, collections of utterly opposing antagonists, many at the pay of foreign powers, few have the national interest in mind. And those that do have such ideas quickly lose support.

Iraq today is but a amalgam of quarreling factions, none of which has the power to prevail. The only thing preventing the country from being partitioned is the fact that the other powers fear the others gaining too much - and that it wouldn't look good for the US.

But by itself? It is a broken state, and one that cannot repair itself in the way it is allowed to operate.

Big surprise that Martim thought the Fascist leadership of old Iraq was the "cream of the crop".

Actually, it should be.

But excuse me, I would like to ask you how many Iraqis, supporters of the old and new regimes, do you know, exactly? Have you compared them with each other?

Because I have. The Baath'ists were in power in Iraq for 35 years (well before Saddam) and they created the basis of a secular state.

For all the years the Baath Party was in power, most intellectuals grew around it, as well as its middle- and upper-classes. The vast majority of the literate people were Baath. Not all agreed with Saddam when he came to power in 1979 - many left the country for Britain. But they remained secular and non-sectarian. Allawi is an example of this.

Writers, scientists, entertainers, teachers... the overwhelming part of these were all Baath.

Now, you MAY just be kind enough to remember that, until the invasion of Kuweit, the Saddam regime was the dear of the West and the US liked it a lot - heck, one of my Baath'ist friends is married to an American woman (which, incidentally, used to write for American publications and be quite respected. But since Saddam became a 'Bad Boy', US publishers now refuse her articles, claiming that they're 'biased' [i.e. do not reflect the official US propaganda]).

Many were even educated in the US, and held important jobs both in the US and at the United Nations.

Now, by simply banning them, the US allowed the other factions to have free reign to quarrel over Iraq, and very few of them had the sophistication or the education of those who ruled the nation for many years.

As a result, Iraq was simply thrown to the dogs. There is no intelligentsia to take hold. One is trying to develop, but sectarian politics (inflamed in a not small portion by the US, but also by Iran and Saudi Arabia) will keep it from truly rising for decades, at the very least.

Non-baathists often mean well, but they lack enough finesse to do things without a proper organization. And such organizations do not exist as such in Iraq. There are political movements that lack the know-how, and the organizations that are in place are often supported/funded by other powers. No truly national party capable of credibly holding power over the entire country exists.

Or that the new leadership must therefor be more corrupt than the old.  That almost isn't even possible.

Grumbler, Iraq doesn't have a leadership.

The Kurds basically rule themselves, the Sh'ia only obey the Laws they want, the Anbar province is like a military zone and Baghdad is a sort of zombie city where Death can come from anywhere. The 'government' that is supposed to 'rule' is created after endless months of bickering between literally dozens of parties, and the PM holds very little power. Whatever the cabinet decides, after endless negotiations, it is only enforced where the US troops are, where it has kinda loyal militias, or where for local convenience the local factions decide to accept.

That is one of the reasons why al-Maliki is trying to bring back 20,000 former Baath officers. They are the only ones secular enough and with sufficient experience to create Army units that might, eventually, make Iraq a cohesive nation. For only through a credible military force can such a diverse nation exist as such.

And that is why most other parties will oppose it firecely. For many reasons, there is little interest for them in a united country.

Oh, and there is one thing all Iraqis of all ideologies agree on - the Americans simply DO NOT understand the situation. Not even a little bit. The US is basically wading in a self-created dream that bears litte resemblance with reality.

[The Minsky Moment]

The governments that come out of the elections are jokes, collections of utterly opposing antagonists, many at the pay of foreign powers, few have the national interest in mind. And those that do have such ideas quickly lose support.

The technical name for that is a parliamentary government with proportional representation.

The vast majority of the literate people were Baath.

[Yi] Stats please [/Yi]

Non-baathists often mean well, but they lack enough finesse to do things without a proper organization. And such organizations do not exist as such in Iraq. There are political movements that lack the know-how, and the organizations that are in place are often supported/funded by other powers. No truly national party capable of credibly holding power over the entire country exists.

Yes, "finesse" is definitely the word that comes to mind when thinking of the governance style of Saddam, Qusay, Uday and the rest of the Tikriti gangsters.

Let's face it, they didn't even make the trains run on time and the uniforms sucked.  That pretty much uses up the last remaining justifications for fascism.

Oh, and there is one thing all Iraqis of all ideologies agree on - the Americans simply DO NOT understand the situation. Not even a little bit. The US is basically wading in a self-created dream that bears litte resemblance with reality.

The American mind is unsophisticated and unable to contain the mighty river that is your wisdom.

[Martim Silva]

The technical name for that is a parliamentary government with proportional representation.

Think of a US where 80% of Congress admired and recieved money from Russia, China and India.

Think of a US where the South self-ruled itself and refused any Federal interference in its internal affairs.

Think of a US where whole regions had opposing religions, took them extremely seriously, and their leaders actively encouraged fights with the others.

Think of a US where no party got over 10% of the vote, and whole coalitions perhaps 20%.

Think of a US where the Democrats and the Republicans had been banned, and the only political formations are associations made on the run by amateurs.

Think of a permanently deadlocked government.

Think of a US where US troops could not safely be in about half the country.

Think of a US where terrorists could roam the territory, and where you never knew where a bomb would go off.

Think of the area between Washington DC and New York as a warzone, were one could die at any moment.

Think of all the best people in the country leaving, for despair or fear of their lives.

Would such a US have a prosperous future?

The vast majority of the literate people were Baath.

You could - and did not - go far if you were not Baath. And forget higher education.

(a bit like in my country, where universities block people based on their political preferences, but even then it was  a lot worse).

Yes, "finesse" is definitely the word that comes to mind when thinking of the governance style of Saddam, Qusay, Uday and the rest of the Tikriti gangsters.

Let's face it, they didn't even make the trains run on time and the uniforms sucked.  That pretty much uses up the last remaining justifications for fascism.

1. The Baath were not fascists, more like secular nationalists. One of the reasons why, you know, the US liked them so much during the 70s and 80s and held Iraq as an example for the Middle East.

2.  A Nation isn't made just of the top group that leads it. Otherwise I'd judge the US strictly based on George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people in many important places - lawyers, teachers, writers, composers, journalists - that make the core of what a nation is.

The American mind is unsophisticated and unable to contain the mighty river that is your wisdom.

No, you just refuse to accept that sometimes you are doing more harm than good and, above all, that the solutions you always advocate may not eventually be the right ones for all places at all times.

[Jaron]

Martim 1, Joan 0

[Razgovory]

To be honest I don't talk to a lot of Iraqi refugees, but if I did my first question would be: "How the fuck did you get in my basement"?

[Admiral Yi]

I know one Iraqi refugee.

[grumbler]

No, you just refuse to accept that sometimes you are doing more harm than good and, above all, that the solutions you always advocate may not eventually be the right ones for all places at all times.

That is what I tell MM all the time.  His posts may be erudite and technically correct, and even witty, but his posts are doing more harm than good, because he just makes Portuguese posters post even more incomprehensible drivel here.  He need to be more like that poster Joan Robinson, who always advocated solutions that were eventually the right ones for all places at all times, and who seldom sparked the dreaded porkchop diatribe.

[citizen k]

... and Baghdad is a sort of zombie city where Death can come from anywhere.

I think one post-Baath Iraq positive is that it's a more vibrant democracy than when under Saddam.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Think of the area between Washington DC and New York as a warzone, were one could die at any moment.

Baltimore and Philly?  Well........

[Jaron]

Think of the area between Washington DC and New York as a warzone, were one could die at any moment.

Baltimore and Philly?  Well........

[jimmy olsen]

Think of the area between Washington DC and New York as a warzone, were one could die at any moment.

Baltimore and Philly?  Well........

Nice

[Ed Anger]

To be honest I don't talk to a lot of Iraqi refugees, but if I did my first question would be: "How the fuck did you get in my basement"?

[Ed Anger]

No, you just refuse to accept that sometimes you are doing more harm than good and, above all, that the solutions you always advocate may not eventually be the right ones for all places at all times.

That is what I tell MM all the time.  His posts may be erudite and technically correct, and even witty, but his posts are doing more harm than good, because he just makes Portuguese posters post even more incomprehensible drivel here.  He need to be more like that poster Joan Robinson, who always advocated solutions that were eventually the right ones for all places at all times, and who seldom sparked the dreaded porkchop diatribe.

Eggplant. EGGPLANT. Only HVC is given the porkchop title, by my divine grace.

[grumbler]

Eggplant. EGGPLANT. Only HVC is given the porkchop title, by my divine grace.

  Better let the Portuguese know, and good luck with enforcing that.

[The Minsky Moment]

No, you just refuse to accept that sometimes you are doing more harm than good

I accept that but it is too late to change careers now.