Lexington: "A Nation of Jailbirds"

[Caliga]

Interesting.

So if someone was convicted of robbing his former employer at gunpoint, shooting his wife, and raping his daughter - a prospective future employer has no right to know that?

I guess I would question what an individual like this is doing out of prison.

[stjaba]

As Grumbler and others have pointed out, it's practices like mandatory minimums that are causing high incarceration rates. In the past it was much more common for prisoners to be released early, but that doesn't really happen too much anymore, at least within the federal system.

On a personal note, I saw someone sent to 15 years in prison for violation of parole. The violation was a posession of a single bullet. The guy was a wife-beating thug, but still that's pretty out there. But the sentence was within the federal sentencing guidelines. Although the guidelines are no longer mandatory, many (or most if not all) judges still follow them. 

[Zanza]

No idea about EU/Polish law, but under German law, a prospective employer can certainly ask for a criminal record. You'll then have to go to the municipal authority, pay a small fee, and they'll send you one. You can then decide whether you show it your prospective employer or not. If you don't show it, that's a valid reason not to hire you. Most employers don't actually care, but the biggest of them, the state, always demands it. I know because I had to get one either when I was mustered for military service or when I applied for civilian service instead of the military service.

Furthermore you can't become a physician, a lawyer, etc. or get a PhD when you have a criminal record.

[Berkut]

Interesting.

So if someone was convicted of robbing his former employer at gunpoint, shooting his wife, and raping his daughter - a prospective future employer has no right to know that?

I guess I would question what an individual like this is doing out of prison.

He has served his time of course. In Europe, that would be what - 5 years? Out in 3 for good behavior?

[Malthus]

You don't have the drug culture that can be so lucrative though. No real reason to shoot your homey moving in on your corner, if there isn't a giant pile of cash to be made on that corner.

I find it odd that we are talking about incarceration rates completely irrespective of crime rates - we will link in mental health, but kind of skip over the 800lb gorilla of the much higher crime rate itself, especially in urban areas in the US.

I think that is at least as interesting a discussion. What is the incarceration rate for similar demographics in the US and other Western nations, such that they exist?

What is the equivalent crime rate in a European city that compares to Detroit, MI? Is there such a thing to begin with?

That's quite true, and an example of why I say that there is no simple one-note explaination for the difference. It isn't *just* the War on Drugs, or federal sentencing guidelines - I suspect there are lots and lots of factors, cultural and demographic, that feed into it - the existence of a Black underclass being perhaps the most significant (it is no secret that a huge percentage of prisoners are Black).

I'd disagree that the lucrative nature of the drug trade is all that different in Canada - there is piles of money being made in the drug trade here: BC Bud is the #1 cash crop in British Columbia, for example, and is often traded for cocaine for sale here in Canada.

[Caliga]

I'm actually curious if the incarceration rate for, say, Jamaicans in Britain is comparable to that of blacks in the US.  I wonder if we do somehow treat our lower classes differently (or worse).  I know all the Euros will claim as much, but I'd be curious to see those figures anyway.

[Malthus]

I'm actually curious if the incarceration rate for, say, Jamaicans in Britain is comparable to that of blacks in the US.  I wonder if we do somehow treat our lower classes differently (or worse).  I know all the Euros will claim as much, but I'd be curious to see those figures anyway.

Funny you should mention Jamacans ... 

[grumbler]

And before anyone just goes and writes these numbers off on just "the war on drugs":

The first stat I could find states that 20% of prisoners in the US are there for a drug offence.  http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

You might think that's high, but remember the US incarceration rate is several times higher than other places.  So even if you cut the US prison population by 20% the US prison population would still be extremely high.

Also consider that all other western democracies have laws against drugs as well.

This argument only works if few or none of the "violent" offenders were involved in the War on Drugs.  If you cut the number of incarcerated people in half, then the incarceration rate  would not be very remarkable.

[Zanza]

I'm actually curious if the incarceration rate for, say, Jamaicans in Britain is comparable to that of blacks in the US.  I wonder if we do somehow treat our lower classes differently (or worse).  I know all the Euros will claim as much, but I'd be curious to see those figures anyway.

No statistics about specific subgroups, but about 9% of Germany's population are foreigners, yet about 22% of the prison population are foreigners.

[Richard Hakluyt]

About 12% of the UK's prison population is black, their share of the population is much lower, but the 2% mentioned in the piece below is almost certainly an underestimate :

http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/facts/UK/index51.aspx?ts=1

[Sheilbh]

I'm actually curious if the incarceration rate for, say, Jamaicans in Britain is comparable to that of blacks in the US.  I wonder if we do somehow treat our lower classes differently (or worse).  I know all the Euros will claim as much, but I'd be curious to see those figures anyway.

I don't think so.  The difference is Euros (of a certain ilk) seem to think that their Somali/Jamaican/Albanian immigrants are almost constitutionally more likely to commit crime.  It seems obvious to me that the comparatively poorly educated and economically unsuccessful groups (which often coincide with racial groups) are more likely to commit crime and be punished: blacks in the US, Inuit in Greenland, Maoris in New Zealand.  They're all to some extent socially marginalised, they're all over-represented in prison.

[Malthus]

And before anyone just goes and writes these numbers off on just "the war on drugs":

The first stat I could find states that 20% of prisoners in the US are there for a drug offence.  http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

You might think that's high, but remember the US incarceration rate is several times higher than other places.  So even if you cut the US prison population by 20% the US prison population would still be extremely high.

Also consider that all other western democracies have laws against drugs as well.

This argument only works if few or none of the "violent" offenders were involved in the War on Drugs.  If you cut the number of incarcerated people in half, then the incarceration rate  would not be very remarkable.

Berkut made that argument as well, and I still don't understand it.

Other countries have the drug trade as well, including violent gangsters. The authorities may not crack down as hard on your average teen caught with a spliff, but still take a pretty dim view of violent gangsterism, in spite of not engaging in the excesses of the War on Drugs.

Is the argument that the policies of the War on Drugs actually *causes* violent gangsterism? I suppose a case can be made that having drugs illegal encourages gangsters, giving them a livelihood - but drugs are sold by gangsters in Canada as well as in the US.

[Sheilbh]

About 12% of the UK's prison population is black, their share of the population is much lower, but the 2% mentioned in the piece below is almost certainly an underestimate :

http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/facts/UK/index51.aspx?ts=1

Apparently that's right according to the 2001 census.  Although I do wonder at the definition of 'black British' and 'mixed race British'.  Also the black British population seems to be focussed on certain cities.  So about 20% of people who consider themselves black British live in London and so on.

Edit:  But, yeah, it really surprised me too.

[Barrister]

And before anyone just goes and writes these numbers off on just "the war on drugs":

The first stat I could find states that 20% of prisoners in the US are there for a drug offence.  http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

You might think that's high, but remember the US incarceration rate is several times higher than other places.  So even if you cut the US prison population by 20% the US prison population would still be extremely high.

Also consider that all other western democracies have laws against drugs as well.

This argument only works if few or none of the "violent" offenders were involved in the War on Drugs.  If you cut the number of incarcerated people in half, then the incarceration rate  would not be very remarkable.

Not really.

The US incarceration rate is 5 to six times higher than other Western democracies.  See page 3 here http://www.sentencingproject.org/Admin/Documents/publications/inc_comparative_intl.pdf

In order to blame "the war on drugs" as the primary cause you would need to find that 80% of the people in US prisons were "involved in the war on drugs".

What seems to be different in the US is the sentences that are handed out on all manner of crimes (including but not limited to drugs).  Anecdotally at least sentences handed out in Canada seem dramatically lower by an order of magnitude or more than what I've seen on both US criminal records, seen reported here on Languish, and what I hear on the media.  But I could be wrong since I'm relying only on anecdote.

[Richard Hakluyt]

About 12% of the UK's prison population is black, their share of the population is much lower, but the 2% mentioned in the piece below is almost certainly an underestimate :

http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/facts/UK/index51.aspx?ts=1

Apparently that's right according to the 2001 census.  Although I do wonder at the definition of 'black British' and 'mixed race British'.  Also the black British population seems to be focussed on certain cities.  So about 20% of people who consider themselves black British live in London and so on.

Edit:  But, yeah, it really surprised me too.

Of course the population becomes almost overwhelmingly white if one visits places like the NE of England; our impressions of non-white numbers are probably inflated from too many boozeups in London.
OTOH, crime is not notably lower in a place like NE England than in London; which would support your suggestion that crime is committed mainly by the socially marginalised rather than any particular race. That group being white in the NE but mainly of different ethnic origins in London.