Toyota recall hearings

[Gbeagle]

Automatic shifters aren't mechanical; they're electronic.  In theory (and what this woman is describing), they can fail to where you can't actually shift the car into neutral.  I guess I was a little unclear; neutral will disconnect the gear train completely, but only if you can actually get to it through the electronic shifter.

It also seems to me, from the fact that in a couple incidents of this shifting the car into neutral has failed, that car's logic controller is suffering some kind of massive fault. The throttles are electronic too afterall. Though you would hope that the failure mode of the system isn't throttle open...

[Darth Wagtaros]

Did you watch the video at the link?  She tried to turn it off and it wasn't able to until the car had slowed to 33 MPH; she's also got witnesses saying that her husband shifted the car into neutral without the key fob, and that the car had tried to turn itself back on when they tried to winch it onto a tow truck (I'm assuming that something in the electronics was jammed "on" and running off the battery).

Was it: Christine?

When Herbie goes bad.

The Lovebug loves no more.  Now he is a car on a hunt for vengeance against a society that replaced his sweet and loving genre with KITT and a new era of cynicism and road rage.

[ulmont]

Toyota's under huge pressure, in the hot seat. US Congressional hearings this week.

Well, they should be.  Looks like their cars ended up sending people to jail:

Emerging evidence of flaws in Toyotas could help free a Minnesota man who was convicted of vehicular homicide despite his claims the brakes did not work as his Camry suddenly accelerated and slammed into another car, killing three members of one family.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/toyota-acceleration-problems-new-evidence-imprisoned-minnesota-toyota-camry-owner/story?id=9903455&page=1

[The Brain]

Toyota's under huge pressure, in the hot seat. US Congressional hearings this week.

Well, they should be.  Looks like their cars ended up sending people to jail:

Emerging evidence of flaws in Toyotas could help free a Minnesota man who was convicted of vehicular homicide despite his claims the brakes did not work as his Camry suddenly accelerated and slammed into another car, killing three members of one family.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/toyota-acceleration-problems-new-evidence-imprisoned-minnesota-toyota-camry-owner/story?id=9903455&page=1

Yes that's what's bad about that incident.

[Ed Anger]

Thank you BBC comments!

9. At 6:53pm on 24 Feb 2010, DouglasFeith wrote:

Yeah, think we got the point the first time. But it is interesting to note that over 30,000 people are killed every year in Amerika in auto accidents. That's ten times as many as were killed in 9/11. As a cause of death, terrorism is right near the bottom of the list, and yet it's being used as a pretext for obscene military budgets and unconscionable wars of unilateral aggression by Amerika that are incalculably worse than Toyota's inexcusable malfeasance. It wouldn't be at all difficult, however, to "outdo the emotion and tension of yesterday's event". All you would have to do is allow a few weeping mother's from Afghanistan or Gaza to testify about seeing their children one last time before they were killed by Amerikan drones or blockaded by Amerikan allies. Amerikans and Israelis are always so quick to feel sorry for their own over-privilged selves. Perhaps they should save a few tears for their endless uncounted victims.

I needed a good laugh. 

[DGuller]

Inside that anti-Semitic vitriol is a pretty large grain of truth.  This whole Toyota situation is an example of a massive over-reaction, considering the death toll.  Yes, having the throttle stick on you, and not being able to do anything about it, would be a very tramatizing experience.  So would be spinning off the road in wet conditions and wrapping yourself around a tree, and that happens hundreds of times more frequently.

[citizen k]

  Yes, having the throttle stick on you, and not being able to do anything about it, would be a very tramatizing experience. 

It stings a little more when it's caused by the negligence of others.

[DGuller]

  Yes, having the throttle stick on you, and not being able to do anything about it, would be a very tramatizing experience. 

It stings a little more when it's caused by the negligence of others.

But it kills and maims exactly the same.

[The Brain]

The zero fatalities of Three Mile Island has cost us a lot of money.

[Berkut]

  Yes, having the throttle stick on you, and not being able to do anything about it, would be a very tramatizing experience. 

It stings a little more when it's caused by the negligence of others.

But it kills and maims exactly the same.

I am not sure what the point is here - the fact that lots of people die due to car accidents means that some people who die due to the negligence of Toyota is somehow less...what? Important?

It's not like we do nothing about all those people who are killed or injured in auto accidents.

[DGuller]

I am not sure what the point is here - the fact that lots of people die due to car accidents means that some people who die due to the negligence of Toyota is somehow less...what? Important?

It's not like we do nothing about all those people who are killed or injured in auto accidents.

There are several points here.

1)  I'm just putting the carnage into perspective.  Given the frequency of fatal car crashes, having this throttle issue does not suddenly make Toyotas death traps.  If we were fine with the safety of Toyotas as it was before this throttle issue, we should really be fine with this additional rare and marginal hazard added on.  It doesn't mean that we should do nothing about it, but it does mean that we shouldn't go apeshit over it.

2)  The reason this failure is possible is due to giving up much of the control over the car to the electronics.  At first glance in seems reckless, because it opens the door for engineers to make a design mistake that kills a dozen of people or two when computers completely fuck up. 

However, all this switch to electronics also makes possible things like stability control, as well as other active safety features that are still in infancy.  Stuff like blind spot detection, automatic braking, belt pre-tensioner, etc. 

All that stuff can make enormous dents into fatality rate from the ordinary, and by far the most common, types of accidents: the kinds where the driver, and not the car, fucks up.  We have to be careful not to swear off the entire concept of having electronics do a lot of work in a car, because we'll be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

That said, there is no excuse for the scummy corporate behavior aimed to conceal the problems.  If Toyota engaged in it heavily, as it looks like they did, then they should be punished for that.

[Berkut]

OK, fair enough - got no beef with any of that.

We will likely go apeshit over it, but that might mean I can get a good deal on a used Toyota, which is still just about one the best cars made, so that is ok.

[DGuller]

We will likely go apeshit over it, but that might mean I can get a good deal on a used Toyota, which is still just about one the best cars made, so that is ok.

That's what I would've planned to do if I didn't dislike Toyota's cars.  Resale values are almost guaranteed to plunge, mostly for dumb and irrational reasons. 

About 20 years ago, there was a similar story concerning Audis.  Turns out it was mostly fabricated by 60 Minutes, but lots of people gave away their cars for a huge discount.  People who were smart enough to buy almost stole cars that were pretty good pieces of machinery.

[Martinus]

I'm kinda surprised why you have congressional hearings for matters like this in the US. I mean, if I understand correctly, this is a purely private-to-private issue, with no public issue (e.g. misuse of power or corruption) involved.

[dps]

The reason this failure is possible is due to giving up much of the control over the car to the electronics.  At first glance in seems reckless, because it opens the door for engineers to make a design mistake that kills a dozen of people or two when computers completely fuck up. 

However, all this switch to electronics also makes possible things like stability control, as well as other active safety features that are still in infancy.  Stuff like blind spot detection, automatic braking, belt pre-tensioner, etc. 

All that stuff can make enormous dents into fatality rate from the ordinary, and by far the most common, types of accidents: the kinds where the driver, and not the car, fucks up.  We have to be careful not to swear off the entire concept of having electronics do a lot of work in a car, because we'll be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Sort of like how airbags have saved a lot of lives, but in certain cases they can kill a driver or passanger who would have likely not been even injuried seriously without them.

Though it would probably be a good idea to have the emergency brake be a strictly mechanical device that can't be overcome by the electronics.