Dozens held in Turkish 'coup plot'

[Savonarola]

What does it take to become the "Paris of the Balkans" ?   

You just need attitude; Detroit is the Paris of the Midwest.   

As opposed to Paris, Texas?

Paris, Texas is the Paris of Texas.

[Syt]

And a good movie.

[PDH]

Tim would make an excellent Helot, don't ya think?

at the crypteia there would be brawls to see who got the right to finish him...so yes, excellent.

[Sheilbh]

Well, I have to work with the sources I got.

My stance on this formed when the educated westerners of this forum ejaculated in joy during the various liberalization of religious symbol-wearing reforms of the turkish government. The idea, that the people (any people) would elect a religious party, because they want secular liberal reforms is kinda crazy. To make a Martinus-y over-the-top example, you don't vote Christian Democrat if you want to have pot legalized.

Well I think that liberalisation's been good so far.  I don't want pot legalised or secular liberal reforms - not least because I'm not a secular liberal.  I want reforms to entrench Turkish democracy and general respect for human rights/rule of law and to treat minorities (such as the Kurds) better.  So far the AK Party's been better at that then the Kemalist ultras in the military or the opposition.

I find the idea that they're deeply dangerous and about to show their true colours ANY MINUTE NOW just very bizarre.  They've been in power for the best part of a decade and I just haven't seen a slide to tyranny.  As JR points out, though, they are starting to look like they'll probably lose the next election which I think is next year and that would be a good thing I think - only the truly special (Blair, Gladstone, FDR) deserve more than two terms.

Now we have a wave of yet even more mass arrests, with even more extreme allegations (including plots of terror bombings), and lots of rhetoric about kemalism and the deep state -- and again a lack of anything that looks like hard evidence.

I believe these arrests are connected with the 2003 plot, indeed I think they include the Admiral whose diary that liberal paper (Taraf?) got a hold of that started these investigations.  As far as I know - I'm doing a report on Turkish tax so I've been reading the Turkish press for the past few days - the police have 48 hours to detain and question these guys and then decide to release them or press charges.  So far they've pressed charges against 6-7 and released about the same number.

Now I know the strategy of creating chaos requiring a coup is bizarre to us - but it's one the Turkish military have used before. 

I think it is essential in a state like Turkey to diminish the power of the military and then to strip it of its feeling of invincibility.  If Turkish democracy is to be sustained then it needs to be clear that the military is very much below the law.  I'm sort of pleased by the unity of Turkish liberals such as the view represented by Taraf and the AKP agreeing on this.  It makes me suspect there's more to it than an anti-democratic, anti-liberal power-grab.

[Sheilbh]

The last coup was decades ago; Turkey has been a functioning democracy for over 25 years now.  It was not the AKP that created a stable, democratic Turkey; the AKP is a free rider on that development.   

Well the last coup was 1980, the last time the military removed an elected prime minister was 1997 and the last time an Army Chief of Staff made threatening noises about an elected government was within the past few years.  I don't think the Turkish military are aware that they're not meant to be interfering in politics any more.

[grumbler]

Paris, Texas is the Paris of Texas.

Well-played!

[The Minsky Moment]

Well the last coup was 1980, the last time the military removed an elected prime minister was 1997 and the last time an Army Chief of Staff made threatening noises about an elected government was within the past few years.  I don't think the Turkish military are aware that they're not meant to be interfering in politics any more.

1980 was a while ago.
The military did not remove anyone in 1997.  Erbakan was a PM in a minority coalition - always a precarious position.  Indeed his government was the second minority coalition of that election cycle.  The military memorandum made his position untenable not because it carried the threat of actual violence, but because the Army still had enough prestiage to make it impossible to continue without a real majority. 

As for "threatening noises" I am not sure what that means.  What I do know is that the Army has done absolutely nothing to prevent an Islamist government from exercising sweeping governmental power for most of the past decade, despite the hostility that government has for the traditional military institutions.

[The Minsky Moment]

I believe these arrests are connected with the 2003 plot, indeed I think they include the Admiral whose diary that liberal paper (Taraf?) got a hold of that started these investigations.  As far as I know - I'm doing a report on Turkish tax so I've been reading the Turkish press for the past few days - the police have 48 hours to detain and question these guys and then decide to release them or press charges.  So far they've pressed charges against 6-7 and released about the same number.

Now I know the strategy of creating chaos requiring a coup is bizarre to us - but it's one the Turkish military have used before. 

Here is what is puzzling me - the documents in question relate a 2003 plot, which has a certain plausbility because that is the year Erdogan became PM (and thus a logical time for the Army to move).  But that raises a rather nagging objection: there was no actual 2003 coup attempt of any kind.  And that raises the rather puzzling question of why seven years later in the year 2010, we are now seeing mass arrests of retirees and assorted geriatric cases based on a supposed plot that never actually happened.

[Caliga]

I had Turkish food for dinner both last night and tonight.

[Ed Anger]

I had Turkish food for dinner both last night and tonight.

The Marathon station must have changed its menu.

[dps]

I believe these arrests are connected with the 2003 plot, indeed I think they include the Admiral whose diary that liberal paper (Taraf?) got a hold of that started these investigations.  As far as I know - I'm doing a report on Turkish tax so I've been reading the Turkish press for the past few days - the police have 48 hours to detain and question these guys and then decide to release them or press charges.  So far they've pressed charges against 6-7 and released about the same number.

Now I know the strategy of creating chaos requiring a coup is bizarre to us - but it's one the Turkish military have used before. 

Here is what is puzzling me - the documents in question relate a 2003 plot, which has a certain plausbility because that is the year Erdogan became PM (and thus a logical time for the Army to move).  But that raises a rather nagging objection: there was no actual 2003 coup attempt of any kind.  And that raises the rather puzzling question of why seven years later in the year 2010, we are now seeing mass arrests of retirees and assorted geriatric cases based on a supposed plot that never actually happened.

Well, I think in most countries if there was evidence that military commanders plotted a coup 7 years earlier but never actually pulled the trigger on it, there would be arrests made despite the passage of time.  I'm not saying that the situation is that clearcut--I really don't know--but it doesn't seem particularly implausible.

[Caliga]

The Marathon station must have changed its menu.

Some dude named Kemal bought it a few weeks back.  He wears tons of cologne, gold chains, and has a very hairy chest and a huge moustache.  Maybe he is: a Turk.

[Ed Anger]

The Marathon station must have changed its menu.

Some dude named Kemal bought it a few weeks back.  He wears tons of cologne, gold chains, and has a very hairy chest and a huge moustache.  Maybe he is: a Turk.

Derka Derka!

[Queequeg]

It is 3 AM and I am far too drunk on Raki and far too sexually satisfied to make a coherent response to Minsky's (good, as opposed to Tamas') argument, other than to say that I very, very seriously doubt that Turkey is in the midst of an Islamist revolution for personal reasons.

[grumbler]

I had Turkish food for dinner both last night and tonight.

Was it a: Delight?