Dozens held in Turkish 'coup plot'

[HVC]

I had Turkish food for dinner both last night and tonight.

Was it a: Delight?

on a moonlit night?

[The Minsky Moment]

Well, I think in most countries if there was evidence that military commanders plotted a coup 7 years earlier but never actually pulled the trigger on it, there would be arrests made despite the passage of time. 

In common law countries, conspiracy requires proof of an overt act in futherance.  I believe Turkey is a civil law country, but my recollection is that civil law regimes tend to be more stringent in terms of proof with respect to inchoate crimes.  The fact that considerable time has passed and there is no present danger makes the extreme nature of this law enforcement action harder to understand absent assuming a political motive.

[Syt]

According to my supervisor the cute Turkish chick he hired for out office in Istanbul is the daughter of a general, though he wasn't sure whether he as involved in all this.

She brought us Turkish Delight last week, though, which is all that really matters.

A colelague who was recently at our office down there said that Istanbul had some of the best food she ever had in her travels (she travels at least two or three times a year along non-tourist paths; France, Italy, Spain, Cuba, Mexico, East Asia etc. have all been covered so far).

[Caliga]

Was it a: Delight?

The first night we had manti, which is basically like beef ravioli (or maybe more like a beef wonton) swimming in pepper butter topped with garlic yogurt.

Last night we had a pilaf with lamb kofte (meatballs), fried eggplant, toasted pistachios, currants, and tomato wedges.

[Sheilbh]

Here is what is puzzling me - the documents in question relate a 2003 plot, which has a certain plausbility because that is the year Erdogan became PM (and thus a logical time for the Army to move).  But that raises a rather nagging objection: there was no actual 2003 coup attempt of any kind.  And that raises the rather puzzling question of why seven years later in the year 2010, we are now seeing mass arrests of retirees and assorted geriatric cases based on a supposed plot that never actually happened.

I think it's only recently that the details have come out - which strikes me as plausible given that by their very nature conspiracies are generally secretive.  I mean even in the US what Nixon was doing for much of his time in office wouldn't have been believed and wasn't really known at the time - that's without a Nixon-oriented deep state.  And there are lots of reasons coup-plots don't happen, I'd imagine more fail or don't even begin than are successfully executed.  This could have been party, I believe for example that in 2002 the Chief of the General Staff was replaced and the outgoing chief strongly protested because he considered his successor insufficiently willing to protect the Kemalist legacy. 

I think the situations in countries like Turkey, arguably Cold War Italy and certainly much of Latin America are a lot more murky than to simply dismiss an aborted or a failed coup attempt like this out of mind (or the contrary).

As for "threatening noises" I am not sure what that means.  What I do know is that the Army has done absolutely nothing to prevent an Islamist government from exercising sweeping governmental power for most of the past decade, despite the hostility that government has for the traditional military institutions.

I mean even today Gul, Erdogan and the Chief of the General Staff had a meeting over government-military tensions.  I can't think of many other countries where such a meeting would happen or would produce a statement that all sides agree that this needs to be solved 'within the constitution'.

The formal political role for the military was only largely abolished in 2004, though they have a great deal of informal influence.  The threatening noises I mean was the statement the military made in 2007 over the Gul Presidency: 'The Turkish Armed Forces maintain their sound determination to carry out their duties stemming from laws to protect the unchangeable characteristics of the Republic of Turkey. Their loyalty to this determination is absolute.' 

I'm reassured that this has attracted attention though.  The EU's said it's watching very closely and is calling for an 'exemplary' judicial process and civilian power, that's what I'd like to see.  But there are two further points that reassure me.  One is that the government is in a form of conflict with the military, not with their democratic political opponents.  When they arrest a CHP politician I'll be more worried.  Secondly I believe over 20 of those initially arrested have been released (pending further questioning, potentially) while I believe 20 have been charged.  That doesn't sound like a dangerous government to me.

[The Minsky Moment]

I think it's only recently that the details have come out - which strikes me as plausible given that by their very nature conspiracies are generally secretive.  I mean even in the US what Nixon was doing for much of his time in office wouldn't have been believed and wasn't really known at the time

The Nixon white house actually did stuff though - like orchestrate a break-in and robbery of the opposing party's campaign.  Nothing like that seems to have happened here.  Even if one assumes the documents are entirely authentic and are what they purport to be, it looks like little more than some second tier level officers sketching out a theoretical contingency plan that wiser heads decided never to carry out.

It seems to me that there is a danger here of fighting the last war.  It used to be that what mattered was fighting communism and that is what led the West to tolerate the antics of military.  Now we are all good liberals and the story is the "Christian Democrats" of the AKP vs. the quasi-fascist militarists of the "deep state."

But the reality varies from the narrative: the military is in fact quiescent and it is the AKP which appears to exercise dominant control over the very powerful instruments of the state.  And the would-be "Muslim Democrats" of Turkey do not exactly bring the likes of Merkel and Balkenende to mind -- their recent policy has tended rather anti-American, and almost rabidly anti-Israel, while at the same time aggressively reaching out to befriend the likes of Syria and Iran.  Erdogan's truculent Darfur denial and his cheerleading for the butchers of Sudan fit the same disturbing trend of a religiously partisan and Islamized foreign policy.  At home, AKP legislators have advocated press censorship, prohibition and prayer in the schools.  The analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism. 

[Queequeg]

The analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right; Not for torture, not for open religious profiling (they are trying to get a Greek monastery back working, after the Nationalists shut it down), pushing for ties with Armenia, and I don't think they've made any big anti-LGBT statements yet.

You are also still largely ignoring how disgusting the CHP, let alone the MHP, is.  Remember when Gul was "accused" of being Armenian by a CHP member?

, and almost rabidly anti-Israel

This should make them MORE at home, rather than less so, with European parties.  Turkey was only going to be an ally of Iran as long as it kept its Islam in the closet.  It isn't there anymore.  I think that is good for Turkey, but probably not so great for Israel.

Also worth pointing out that Turkey has not gone anti-Israel for nothing; the campaigns in Lebanon and Gaza, as well as the continued growth of settlements, have changed a lot of people's minds (mine included) on this issue.

Erdogan's truculent Darfur denial and his cheerleading for the butchers of Sudan fit the same disturbing trend of a religiously partisan and Islamized foreign policy.

This I agree with, and is by far the most disheartening sign from Erdogan, and the general trend towards negative feelings about Christians and Jews is greatly upsetting.

AKP legislators have advocated press censorship,

In different cases, and less stringently, than the CHP. 

[Barrister]

The analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

Spellus, I know you're well-read and eduicated, but sometimes the only possible response to your post is:

[grumbler]

The analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

Spellus, I know you're well-read and eduicated, but sometimes the only possible response to your post is:

Beebs, I know that you are educated and all, but Spellus is not only more correct on this issue, but far less obnoxious.  Your words are absurd, because Spellus is making a credible argument (which you notably cannot even respond to rationally) and the rolleyes is completely uncalled-for and just makes you look like a dick who is so frustrated at his inability to respond logically that he resorts to insults.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually meant to be as contemptuous and insulting as you appear in this post, though.

[Martinus]

And if anyone knows anything about being contemptuous and insulting, it's the old g.

[Neil]

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

That's funny.  I don't recall George W. Bush rounding up opposition figures.

You are also still largely ignoring how disgusting the CHP, let alone the MHP, is.  Remember when Gul was "accused" of being Armenian by a CHP member?

Is that bad?

Also worth pointing out that Turkey has not gone anti-Israel for nothing; the campaigns in Lebanon and Gaza, as well as the continued growth of settlements, have changed a lot of people's minds (mine included) on this issue.

Shame on you.

[Neil]

And if anyone knows anything about being contemptuous and insulting, it's the old g.

Actually, that's a good point.  Many people seem to feel that way after a few rounds with grumbler (although I myself never have).  It's like he knows just which buttons to push.

[Barrister]

The analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

Spellus, I know you're well-read and eduicated, but sometimes the only possible response to your post is:

Beebs, I know that you are educated and all, but Spellus is not only more correct on this issue, but far less obnoxious.  Your words are absurd, because Spellus is making a credible argument (which you notably cannot even respond to rationally) and the rolleyes is completely uncalled-for and just makes you look like a dick who is so frustrated at his inability to respond logically that he resorts to insults.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually meant to be as contemptuous and insulting as you appear in this post, though.

No, I pretty much meant to be contemptuous and insulting.

I had no particular issue with the rest of Psellus' post, so I didn't include it in my reply.  On his comment about the "obvious" authoritarian tendencies of the American religious right that merited a

[grumbler]

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

That's funny.  I don't recall George W. Bush rounding up opposition figures.

That's funny.  I don't recall George W. Bush being a member of the American Christian Far Right.

[HVC]

The analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

Spellus, I know you're well-read and eduicated, but sometimes the only possible response to your post is:

Beebs, I know that you are educated and all, but Spellus is not only more correct on this issue, but far less obnoxious.  Your words are absurd, because Spellus is making a credible argument (which you notably cannot even respond to rationally) and the rolleyes is completely uncalled-for and just makes you look like a dick who is so frustrated at his inability to respond logically that he resorts to insults.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually meant to be as contemptuous and insulting as you appear in this post, though.

Zanza did it better :p