WWII tank Duel

[The Brain]

I have to side with Martim on this one. After all if you try to get a job where he works and you don't speak six languages you're toast.

[Agelastus]

While Martim's posts are comedic gold, how an American can argue with a straight face that they respect the right of self determination by one portion of a sovereign nation against the will of the larger portion of said sovereign nation frankly beggars belief.

But that is all I will say on that subject; it is not germane to this thread.

[garbon]

Did any slaves come to California? Were they hot?

[Berkut]

While Martim's posts are comedic gold, how an American can argue with a straight face that they respect the right of self determination by one portion of a sovereign nation against the will of the larger portion of said sovereign nation frankly beggars belief.

The principle of self-determination is not nearly that simple.

I doubt most Americans (or anyone) who serisouly thinks about what "self-determination" means, and under what circumstances it is a valid reason for action, be it violent or political, would ever argue that it is any kind of foundational principle that trumps the practical realities that exist.

In other words - it depends.

[dps]

While Martim's posts are comedic gold, how an American can argue with a straight face that they respect the right of self determination by one portion of a sovereign nation against the will of the larger portion of said sovereign nation frankly beggars belief.

The principle of self-determination is not nearly that simple.

I doubt most Americans (or anyone) who serisouly thinks about what "self-determination" means, and under what circumstances it is a valid reason for action, be it violent or political, would ever argue that it is any kind of foundational principle that trumps the practical realities that exist.

So, in your opinion, was Woodrow Wilson a hypocrit, a demagogue, or just a dumbass?  Or a combination?

[Berkut]

While Martim's posts are comedic gold, how an American can argue with a straight face that they respect the right of self determination by one portion of a sovereign nation against the will of the larger portion of said sovereign nation frankly beggars belief.

The principle of self-determination is not nearly that simple.

I doubt most Americans (or anyone) who serisouly thinks about what "self-determination" means, and under what circumstances it is a valid reason for action, be it violent or political, would ever argue that it is any kind of foundational principle that trumps the practical realities that exist.

So, in your opinion, was Woodrow Wilson a hypocrit, a demagogue, or just a dumbass?  Or a combination?

In regards to what? Did Woodrow Wilson express some kind of unilateral, foundational right to self-determination that extended to everyone, everywhere, under any and all circumstances?

[Agelastus]

While Martim's posts are comedic gold, how an American can argue with a straight face that they respect the right of self determination by one portion of a sovereign nation against the will of the larger portion of said sovereign nation frankly beggars belief.

The principle of self-determination is not nearly that simple.

I doubt most Americans (or anyone) who serisouly thinks about what "self-determination" means, and under what circumstances it is a valid reason for action, be it violent or political, would ever argue that it is any kind of foundational principle that trumps the practical realities that exist.

In other words - it depends.

I agree, and I know its not.

The post was triggered by Yi's comment, actually.

Although in the last few minutes I've discovered that we can now blame all of the Ogaden's, and hence all Somalia's, troubles on the USA's violation of the "self-determination principle" as well!

[dps]

I'm completely lost on the connection between worthless economic policies and assassination attempts.

If there's a connection, we'll have to shoot 3/4 of Congress, most state legislators, and almost everyone who's served as an economic advisor in the exeutive branch in the last 20 years.

[Admiral Yi]

The post was triggered by Yi's comment, actually.

What, that Abkhazians have the right to self-determination?  I think they do, and so do the Georgians who live (or were driven out of) Abkhazia.

If 100% of the population of a given area is in favor of independence it seems like a no-brainer to me.  You only have to work out the issues of jointly held assets and liabilities.  Anything between 51% and 100% you enter a vast murky gray area.

[ulmont]

If 100% of the population of a given area is in favor of independence it seems like a no-brainer to me.  You only have to work out the issues of jointly held assets and liabilities.  Anything between 51% and 100% you enter a vast murky gray area.

You also enter a vast murky grey area working out what an appropriate "area" is to consider.  A city...or small town...or county...or what? I'm sure you could find towns in Utah or Vermont where 90% plus are ready to go independent.

[Berkut]

Even 100% is pretty murky, because then you ahve to ask - well, what size area?

What if 51% of some area want to remain, while 100% of some subset of that area do not?

And if you deide that some percentage of a majority warrants independence, that just encourages ethnic cleansing of those who do NOT wish for it, and the violence that goes along with trying to drive the people who don't agree with you out.

The right to self determination is a vast gray area period, I think.

[Admiral Yi]

The minimum size is more a practical issue than a moral one in my mind.

[Razgovory]

While Martim's posts are comedic gold, how an American can argue with a straight face that they respect the right of self determination by one portion of a sovereign nation against the will of the larger portion of said sovereign nation frankly beggars belief.

But that is all I will say on that subject; it is not germane to this thread.

What are you talking about exactly.

[ulmont]

While Martim's posts are comedic gold, how an American can argue with a straight face that they respect the right of self determination by one portion of a sovereign nation against the will of the larger portion of said sovereign nation frankly beggars belief.

But that is all I will say on that subject; it is not germane to this thread.

What are you talking about exactly.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say "The American Civil War," it being a definite action by the USA to suppress the right of self determination by one portion of a sovereign nation by the larger portion of said sovereign nation.

And also "Mew."

[Admiral Yi]

Isn't it common knowledge, that at the time the plan was publically known about ?

Never heard that.