WWII tank Duel

[Razgovory]

Well, that was depressing.

What? War scares you?

Don't worry. There is always some dumbass loser willing to fight and die for you, for one reason or another.

Real men stay home taking care of their families.

He said depressed, not scared.  Those dumbass losers happened to be draftees.  Just average guys who would have preferred to stay home and taken care of their families.  At least the American tank crew, I don't know about German tank crews, but American ones were mostly draftees (and at that stage in the war many had very little experience in tank warfare).

[Berkut]

I am pretty sure that most German tank crews by that point of the war were:

1. Drafted, and
2. Not very competent either.

The ones who joined up prior to the war and were the experts in their craft where almost certainly dead by Colgone.

Kind of sad watching anyone die by that point of the war. Although that is kind of bullshit I guess - getting your ass killed in some stupid war is pretty sad no matter when it happens, I am sure.

[Kleves]

  What a waste of such a beautiful tank.

Pershing > Panther, you wannabe Nazi.

[grumbler]

Kind of sad watching anyone die by that point of the war. Although that is kind of bullshit I guess - getting your ass killed in some stupid war is pretty sad no matter when it happens, I am sure.

Well, when I die, it is a tragedy no matter what, for sure.  However, I agree with you that dying in a lost cause, which continues simply because the people in charge refuse to admit that their cause is lost, is more sad than people getting killed in a worthier cause.  I mean, Torpedo Eight's saga at Midway is a pretty sad one - 54 guys launch, and ninety minutes later 51 of them are dead, and they never laid a glove on the Japanese fleet.  Still, they were part of a victory, and so their deaths are less sad than those of 3100 of the Yamato's 3300-man crew, because Yamato never should have sortied.

[Caliga]

Yeah, I'll never understand why Germany waited till Berlin was a flaming ruin to surrender.  I know Hitler was delusional, but surely not all of his inner circle was... they should have been utterly ashamed of themselves for not removing him and surrendering before the bitter end.

For the same reason I also find it odd that there is a neo-Nazi movement in Germany (small as it may be): any true German nationalist should despise the Nazis for allowing Germany to be so thoroughly flattened.

[derspiess]

  What a waste of such a beautiful tank.

Pershing > Panther, you wannabe Nazi.

The Pershing was a fine tank-- it was functional, but it was also ugly. 

[Habbaku]

Yeah, I'll never understand why Germany waited till Berlin was a flaming ruin to surrender.  I know Hitler was delusional, but surely not all of his inner circle was... they should have been utterly ashamed of themselves for not removing him and surrendering before the bitter end.

The reasons of why they took so long to surrender are certainly rooted in more than a few things (the collective insanity of some of the high command, for example), but among them are the Allied doctrine of unconditional surrender.  With the demand made for such, I think that it's understandable that the Germans, having recently gone through the wringer from the Treaty of Versailles, would think that things could get even worse had they actually acquiesced before the bitter end.

In the light of the Allied demands, I think it's a bit easier to see why they might've gambled, as they did, on a few last-gasp offensives, wonder weapons and, at the end, simply wanted to see the destruction of Germany rather than a surrender of what little was left standing.

[Grey Fox]

You can see german infantry at the 1:51 mark.

[alfred russel]

Yeah, I'll never understand why Germany waited till Berlin was a flaming ruin to surrender.  I know Hitler was delusional, but surely not all of his inner circle was... they should have been utterly ashamed of themselves for not removing him and surrendering before the bitter end.

For the same reason I also find it odd that there is a neo-Nazi movement in Germany (small as it may be): any true German nationalist should despise the Nazis for allowing Germany to be so thoroughly flattened.

A stranger phenomena is Confederate fanboys. Not necessarily these days, but in the past support for the "Lost Cause" was nearly univeral among whites in the south, even though that cause totally wrecked their country and served no end.

A part of the attraction probably has to do with people having trouble psychologically admitting that the causes that got their family members killed and country devestated were wrong and reprehensible.

[grumbler]

The reasons of why they took so long to surrender are certainly rooted in more than a few things (the collective insanity of some of the high command, for example), but among them are the Allied doctrine of unconditional surrender.  With the demand made for such, I think that it's understandable that the Germans, having recently gone through the wringer from the Treaty of Versailles, would think that things could get even worse had they actually acquiesced before the bitter end.

In the light of the Allied demands, I think it's a bit easier to see why they might've gambled, as they did, on a few last-gasp offensives, wonder weapons and, at the end, simply wanted to see the destruction of Germany rather than a surrender of what little was left standing.

Well, yeah, sure -  that's what everyone has been saying.  There never was a reason for the German leadership to surrender.  Gambles on miraculous offensives and wonder weapons was part and parcel of what made the Weird Reich so weird.  Hitler wanted to see Germany destroyed by the end; he ordered additional destruction in order to punish Germany for having "failed" him.

What is less obvious is why the German people so long remained willing to die in order to buy him the time needed to kill more of them off.  Part of it, for sure, was the myth of the Versailles "punishment" but I don't think the unconditional surrender demand extended the war by a day.  There was never going to be a Hitler surrender, and there was never a point in 1945 at which German surrender would have been worse for the people than fighting on.

I think the Germans were simply unwilling to face the consequences of their own actions; it was always easier to just obey orders than to take the time and effort needed to think rationally about the best interests of one's own nation and family, especially in time of war.

[The Brain]

Yeah, I'll never understand why Germany waited till Berlin was a flaming ruin to surrender. 

Really?

[grumbler]

A stranger phenomena is Confederate fanboys. Not necessarily these days, but in the past support for the "Lost Cause" was nearly univeral among whites in the south, even though that cause totally wrecked their country and served no end.

A part of the attraction probably has to do with people having trouble psychologically admitting that the causes that got their family members killed and country devestated were wrong and reprehensible.

Yes, but this is most noticeable amongst the least educated, so it stands to reason.  These are the kinds of people who don't question things, in any society.

[Barrister]

Yes, but this is most noticeable amongst the least educated, so it stands to reason.  These are the kinds of people who don't question things, in any society.

I'm not sure I agree with that first sentence.

[grumbler]

I'm not sure I agree with that first sentence.

That's okay by me.  I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the stuff you say about the people of the Yukon, so we are even.

[derspiess]

I think the Germans were simply unwilling to face the consequences of their own actions; it was always easier to just obey orders than to take the time and effort needed to think rationally about the best interests of one's own nation and family, especially in time of war.

I agree with this in terms of the Western front, but I can't blame them for not lying down & surrendering to the Russians.