How America Can Rise Again- Interesting Atlantic Article

[Jacob]

ALL governments are old and broken and dysfunctional, unless they are new and broken and dysfunctional; that is the nature of organizations as large as governments.

On one hand I agree with what I think you're saying, that people always bitch about the government and that usually they have a good reason for it since no system is perfect.

But still, it's not too outlandish to say that some governments are more broken than others, is it?  And that any society, including the US, can govern itself in more or less broken fashion?

I mean, I understand your distaste for Chicken Little "everything is fucked" hyperbole, but when I look at things like the California situation, where they seem to have painted themselves into a corner, it does seem that there are trends towards more broken than before.  Or is that just because I don't know all the messes of earlier years, and the California situation is just part of a long tradition of messes?

[Admiral Yi]

California is definitely broken.

[grumbler]

I mean, I understand your distaste for Chicken Little "everything is fucked" hyperbole, but when I look at things like the California situation, where they seem to have painted themselves into a corner, it does seem that there are trends towards more broken than before.  Or is that just because I don't know all the messes of earlier years, and the California situation is just part of a long tradition of messes?

California's governmental systems are less resilient and able to adapt to economic adversity than others, but no one is starving, gangs haven't taken over the cities, and people arrive when buildings catch on fire.  So, no, it isn't "broken" except in the hyperbolic sense.

[The Brain]

California is a failed state.

[garbon]

California's governmental systems are less resilient and able to adapt to economic adversity than others, but no one is starving, gangs haven't taken over the cities, and people arrive when buildings catch on fire.  So, no, it isn't "broken" except in the hyperbolic sense.

[Barrister]

California is a failed state.

The Brain makes a good point.  It would seem that grumbler equats a political unit being "broken" to a "failed state", that is a state where even the ordinary responsibilities of the political unit are not being fulfilled.

I would think that a political unit can be disfunctional and 'broken' without things resorting to anarchy.

[grumbler]

California is a failed state.

The Brain makes a good point.  It would seem that grumbler equats a political unit being "broken" to a "failed state", that is a state where even the ordinary responsibilities of the political unit are not being fulfilled.

I would think that a political unit can be disfunctional and 'broken' without things resorting to anarchy.

I consider a political unit to be "broken" in the same way I consider anything else to be "broken."  You, and others, apparently have a different (but unspecified) meaning.  I willingly concede that, by the terms of your secret meaning of "broken," California is "broken."

[Barrister]

California is a failed state.

The Brain makes a good point.  It would seem that grumbler equats a political unit being "broken" to a "failed state", that is a state where even the ordinary responsibilities of the political unit are not being fulfilled.

I would think that a political unit can be disfunctional and 'broken' without things resorting to anarchy.

I consider a political unit to be "broken" in the same way I consider anything else to be "broken."  You, and others, apparently have a different (but unspecified) meaning.  I willingly concede that, by the terms of your secret meaning of "broken," California is "broken."

bro·ken (brkn)
v.
Past participle of break.
adj.
1. Forcibly separated into two or more pieces; fractured: a broken arm; broken glass.
2. Sundered by divorce, separation, or desertion of a parent or parents: children from broken homes; a broken marriage.
3. Having been violated: a broken promise.
4.
a. Incomplete: a broken set of books.
b. Being in a state of disarray; disordered: troops fleeing in broken ranks.
5.
a. Intermittently stopping and starting; discontinuous: a broken cable transmission.
b. Varying abruptly, as in pitch: broken sobs.
c. Spoken with gaps and errors: broken English.
6. Topographically rough; uneven: broken terrain.
7.
a. Subdued totally; humbled: a broken spirit.
b. Weakened and infirm: broken health.
8. Crushed by grief: died of a broken heart.
9. Financially ruined; bankrupt.
10. Not functioning; out of order: a broken washing machine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/broken

It seems to me that there are several different uses of broken, and that some would seem to support the meaning Jacob and I have ascribed.  Since the meaning I am using is in the dictionary I must respectfully disagree that we are using a "secret meaning".

[grumbler]

It seems to me that there are several different uses of broken, and that some would seem to support the meaning Jacob and I have ascribed.  Since the meaning I am using is in the dictionary I must respectfully disagree that we are using a "secret meaning".

Jacob ascribed to "trends towards broken," which I certainly didn't object to.

You claim "California is broken," and then refuse to say what you mean (claiming merely that there are many meanings for the term).  Since the meaning you are using is not 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 in the list you presented, it must be Spinal Tap's secret "broken goes to 11."  I have conceded that already.

You can actually produce the secret meaning, of course.  Dunno why you have not, but maybe you get your jollies from having "secrets."

[Barrister]

You claim "California is broken,"

I said no such thing.   

The only thing I said in the thread before you jumped on me was:

The Brain makes a good point.  It would seem that grumbler equats a political unit being "broken" to a "failed state", that is a state where even the ordinary responsibilities of the political unit are not being fulfilled.

I would think that a political unit can be disfunctional and 'broken' without things resorting to anarchy.

I in fact have never used the noun "California' in this thread until now.

I was only responding to your quote of:

California's governmental systems are less resilient and able to adapt to economic adversity than others, but no one is starving, gangs haven't taken over the cities, and people arrive when buildings catch on fire.  So, no, it isn't "broken" except in the hyperbolic sense.

And I would continue to respectfully assert that a state can be 'broken' while in a situation well short of gangs controlling the streets and no one arriving when a building catches on fire.

I do not have enough experience with the situation in California to say whether or not that state is broken or not.

[grumbler]

You claim "California is broken,"

I said no such thing.   

The only thing I said in the thread before you jumped on me was:

The Brain makes a good point.  It would seem that grumbler equats a political unit being "broken" to a "failed state", that is a state where even the ordinary responsibilities of the political unit are not being fulfilled.

I would think that a political unit can be disfunctional and 'broken' without things resorting to anarchy.

I in fact have never used the noun "California' in this thread until now.

I was only responding to your quote of:

California's governmental systems are less resilient and able to adapt to economic adversity than others, but no one is starving, gangs haven't taken over the cities, and people arrive when buildings catch on fire.  So, no, it isn't "broken" except in the hyperbolic sense.

And I would continue to respectfully assert that a state can be 'broken' while in a situation well short of gangs controlling the streets and no one arriving when a building catches on fire.

I do not have enough experience with the situation in California to say whether or not that state is broken or not.

So we have no disagreement, then.  I say California is not broken, and you say that something can be broken without state services stopping. Those are not contrary positions - in fact, I explicitly agree with that  hearts can be broken, vases can be broken, and records can be broken, all without state services stopping. 

I mistook your response to my statement for disagreement with the statement, but now see that it was a generalized statement not directly applicable to my statement.

Glad we cleared that up.

[Barrister]

So we have no disagreement, then.  I say California is not broken, and you say that something can be broken without state services stopping. Those are not contrary positions - in fact, I explicitly agree with that  hearts can be broken, vases can be broken, and records can be broken, all without state services stopping. 

I mistook your response to my statement for disagreement with the statement, but now see that it was a generalized statement not directly applicable to my statement.

Glad we cleared that up.

Not quite.

When confronted with the statement that california was broken, you responded with:

California's governmental systems are less resilient and able to adapt to economic adversity than others, but no one is starving, gangs haven't taken over the cities, and people arrive when buildings catch on fire.  So, no, it isn't "broken" except in the hyperbolic sense.

Now it may be that you are imprecise on what you mean by the term 'broken', but it would appear to me that when applied to a political unit you mean that in order for a political unit to be broken there must be:

-people starving
-gangs taking over the streets; and/or
-people not arriving when buildings catch on fire

As far as I can tell, while all three of those conditions may well apply to a failed state, none of those conditions might necessarily apply to a 'broken' state.  So, we can see that I do directly disagree with your statement about what requirements are necessary to call California a broken state.

In other words:

While I am not certain whether or not California is 'broken', the questions you posed in rejecting whether or not California is broken are not the proper questions that must be considered in trying to determine that question.

[Sheilbh]

In my mind the main argument against doing away with the electoral college is the effort it would take.

Interestingly I believe 30-something states have all agreed to call for a Constitutional Convention about the electoral college when a certain number of states do something.  Pass a resolution saying they don't want it.

I like the EC, though I think it should be run as it is in Nebraska.

[The Brain]

That's your answer to everything.

[Josquius]

Down with the electoral college.
It does make election nights more interesting but is anti-democratic. One man one vote forever.