Swine flu vaccine: Poland smarter than everybody else :P

[Drakken]

So Drakken, was this thing engineered? 

I never have flu shots so I didn't have this one despite some misgivings during the height of the hysteria last fall.

G.

The only thing that has been engineered was the anti-vaccination craze at the beginning of the second wave, led here in Quebec by this upper-class twit Jean-Jacques Crèvecoeur, who btw is a sycophant of "doctor" Ryke Geerd Hamer and a tenant of the Total Biology pseudo-medicine movement.

It was bought hook and sinker by the media until it became evident that the H1N1 flu strain wasn't killing only the old and the ill, and that people started to flock to the vaccination clinics.

Sadly, we skeptics made a very, very, very bad job of fighting this woo-woo movement. This stupid stubborness at refusing to debate the kooks in public areas and in the media has potentially threatened the lives of thousands of people in Quebec alone. The media doesn't need us to put the spotlight on insignificant pseudointellectuals and give them an audience, they'll do it without us.

[The Minsky Moment]

How are people going to take that? Who's going to believe the next big media circus around a disease? What happens when that one actually is real? The nation may be ready to handle the problems, but are people going to listen?

It is always a challenge in designing public policy to take into proper consideration the stupidity of the population.

[Fate]

I would hope that the general public doesn't listen. A second round of the Spanish Flu will provide an excellent opportunity to rid the globe of anti-vaccine fanatics like Martinus and Meri.

[DGuller]

I do think that having Marti and Meri is useful.  What if the real Spanish Flu 2.0 comes, and everyone is vaccinated?  We wouldn't realize what disaster we averted, everyone would stay healthy, and it would be regarded as just another false alarm.  However, if we have Marti and Meri refuse vaccinations and subsequently drop dead, it would be very helpful for public awareness.

[Iormlund]

How are people going to take that? Who's going to believe the next big media circus around a disease? What happens when that one actually is real? The nation may be ready to handle the problems, but are people going to listen?

It is always a challenge in designing public policy to take into proper consideration the stupidity of the population.

Just like writing software then.


On the original subject, I finally got the shot a week ago, since I'm immunodepressed to keep my Crohn's inactive. A couple hours after that I started experiencing sore throat, mild headache and, only that first night, fever. Evening headaches are pretty much gone, but I'm still coughing.
One of my workmates has had a nasty cough for the last month, though, so it might not be related at all.

[Fate]

I do think that having Marti and Meri is useful.  What if the real Spanish Flu 2.0 comes, and everyone is vaccinated?  We wouldn't realize what disaster we averted, everyone would stay healthy, and it would be regarded as just another false alarm.  However, if we have Marti and Meri refuse vaccinations and subsequently drop dead, it would be very helpful for public awareness.

We may still have a free rider problem if there are a sufficient number of sane people to provide Meri and Marti the benefits of herd immunity.

[crazy canuck]

I do think that having Marti and Meri is useful.  What if the real Spanish Flu 2.0 comes, and everyone is vaccinated?  We wouldn't realize what disaster we averted, everyone would stay healthy, and it would be regarded as just another false alarm.  However, if we have Marti and Meri refuse vaccinations and subsequently drop dead, it would be very helpful for public awareness.

We may still have a free rider problem if there are a sufficient number of sane people to provide Meri and Marti the benefits of herd immunity.

There is a whole Polish nation just begging to be wiped out. 

[Martinus]

A) It killed off a larger number of healthy people, even with usually mild chronic issues like light asthma, diabetes, and even obesity, compared to usual percentages in endemic flu. You could not predict with a high level of confidence who would be fine and who would caught with tubes in the nose in ICU for the next two weeks fighting for his or her life. At least with endemic flu, you have some recognizeable patterns (the very young, the old, and the immunodepressed) other than rare cases that can be counted on one hand. With the swine flu you had teens, healthy people and pregnant women as well.

So it is about breeders vs. homos, right? Fuck you, you homophobe! 

[Martinus]

I would hope that the general public doesn't listen. A second round of the Spanish Flu will provide an excellent opportunity to rid the globe of anti-vaccine fanatics like Martinus and Meri.

I'm not an anti-vaccine fanatic. I get regular flu shots each year. I would have probably got the swine flu shot if it was available in Poland.

However, I resent the do-or-die blackmail big pharma employed to get the insanely sweet deal from governments, by exploiting the gullibility and the mass hysteria surrounding the swine flu. I am glad my government didn't choose to pay the "stupid premium" for the vaccine and waste my tax money that way.

[Ed Anger]

 

[Martinus]

Which post of mine does this reference?

PS. The homophobe post was a self-referential joke. 

[Ed Anger]

Which post of mine does this reference?

Mostly the BIG PHARMA! BIG PHARMA! tinge throughout the thread. 

[merithyn]

The notion that the scare was a conspiracy by the pharma industry and media is cracked. The fact that it did not turn out to be a big disaster is pure ex post facto thinking.

Who said anything about a conspiracy? I think the media jumped on it because it's a big scare, and the pharma-cos jumped on it because it was a money maker. I don't think they concocted the scare, rather that they took it and ran with it.

Fact is that the World Health Organization listed this as a "level 6" situation - a full pandemic.

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/phase/en/index.html

Unless the WHO is controlled by the "big pharma and the media", of course.

This was not a "minute" thread blown up by the media; it was a real and pressing threat. The virus did not mutate so as to be deadly, but there was zero way to predict that in advance.

People may well be stupid and not realize that not every biological threat can be predicted exactly. Same with the threats posed by extreme weather, volcanoes, earthquakes and tsunamis. They are only partly predictable by science. That does not justify *not taking precautions* when the evidence suggests a threat is, in fact, likely; the costs of being wrong and having a "false positive" are outweighed by the extreme costs of a "false negative".

This website does a fantastic job of answering questions about the differences between the seasonal flu and H1N1, how it was handled by the CDC and WHO, and why the media and government handled it the way they did. It explains much more clearly what I'm trying to say, and obviously not doing a good job of.

[Martinus]

Which post of mine does this reference?

Mostly the BIG PHARMA! BIG PHARMA! tinge throughout the thread. 

Man, I am not advancing any conspiracy theory here.

The deal they got is pretty public and it is unlike anything they got before. Normally pharma companies distribute their vaccines to users (hospitals, clinics, pharmacies) and as such take normal responsibility for the faulty product, as well as take a commercial risk any supplier takes - that if the demand is not high enough, they will lose money.

In this case, they distributed the swine flu vaccine in any given country only via the national governments, and only if (i) the government in question gave them full indemnity against any harm caused by the product, and (ii) it purchased the entire batch up front. That is why France bought 100 millions doses (twice its population) and now is looking for a buyer of the 95 millions that were not used.

Now, pharma companies are rather infamous for greasing the wheels here and there (there is no year that passes without a scandal involving them offering full expense trips to doctors prescribing their products, for example), so I would not be surprised if they did so here as well - whether with journalists, or politicians. But even without that, you got to admit that what is above the table is pretty unusual (and sweet for them).

[Martinus]

Not really. There were numerous voices saying that the swine flu scare is being hyped up by pharmaceutical corporations and the like (and I remember many people here on Languish saying they have no intention of being vaccinated - although more in Europe than in the US). These voices prove to be correct and there has been little surprise there.

Homer: Well, there's not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol is sure doing its job.
Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, sweetie.
Lisa: Dad, what if I were to tell you that this rock keeps away tigers.
Homer: Uh-huh, and how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work. It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: I see.
Lisa: But you don't see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock.

Actually, this dialogue works pretty well with the vaccine, doesn't it?

The countries that bought the anti-tiger rock (i.e. the swine flu vaccine) didn't get attacked by tigers (i.e. didn't get massive deaths due to swine flu).

The countries that did not buy the anti-tiger rock didn't get attacked by tigers, either though.